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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 3

CONLANG March 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Is there an inverse relationship between lexical richness and grammatical complexity?

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:17:04 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

On 21/03/2013 07:45, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 3:34 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>
>> On 20/03/2013 19:06, C. Brickner wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>
>> vir-um vide-o = I see a/the man.
>>>
>>> In the Latin sentence I can see the "I", the "see",
>>> and the "man".  But were is the "a/the"?  As far as I
>>> remember, the "-um" doesn't make the noun definite or
>>> indefinite, just the object of the verb.
>>>
>>
>> Correct - -um merely marks "man" as the direct object.
>>  There is nothing in the Latin, either lexically or
>> grammatically corresponding to English "a" or "the".
>>
>
> Shouldn't the order of the words also be considered?
> Isn't there a difference in emphasis in the Latin
> between "virum video" and "video virum"?

Yes, but that does not per_se help with determining whether
'man" is definite or indefinite.  There is still nothing in
either the lexis or the morphology of the Latin which
corresponds to English "a" or "an."

Also in Latin there is the complication that the languages
has been (and still to limited extent _is_) used over many
centuries.  If we are dealing with Classical Latin, then
sure the word order should be considered; if we found such a
sentence in Medieval Latin, then the word order is probably
not significant, other than reflecting usage in the writer's
L1.  If it's post-Medieval, then we'd need to know the
context and/or the writer to know whether the difference in
word order was significant.

Assuming we take the words as either Classical or following
the Classical norm, then the change does have some significance.

_virum video_ is the unmarked word order: "I saw a man" or
"I saw the man."

_video virum_ fronts the topic and puts the focus after it.
  We know we topic is about your seeing something, but what
is it you see?  In this case, I guess, the indefinite is
more likely, i.e.
"I see _a man_" or "It's a man that I see."

But the unmarked form is clear only in context.

But I'm not clear what Gary does mean.  Consider the following.

=====================================================

On 20/03/2013 20:14, Gary Shannon wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:29 AM, George Corley wrote:
> ---
>>
>> Uh, do you mean morphemes?
>>
>
> Possibly. I'm an engineer not a linguist. :)

Either one does or one doesn't. If it is being claimed that
the morphemes of one language will be encoded with
linguistic elements that correspond to those morphemes in
another language, then that is clearly false.

[snip]
>>
>> I don't think this is a given.  Lexical meaning is a
>> very fuzzy thing -- you can translate between
>> languages, yes, but very often most of the words
>> actually cover different semantic spaces when
>> considering their use in other contexts.

Yes - translation is not a trivial matter, as anyone who has
been engaged in translation will know.

[snip]

> Certainly whenever a complex literary sentence rich with
> levels of meaning is translated to another language,
> some of the nuances are lost. But when you ask the man in
> the vegetable stall "Do you have any cabbage today?" I'm
> sure that this meaning could be reliably translated into
> any human language that includes the concept of
> "cabbage", without measurable loss of meaning.

Obviously any translation will have a word meaning
"cabbage".  That is trivial.

> That being the case, there _must_ be _some_ element in
> each such translation that conveys each element of the
> whole meaning. If some part of the meaning is missing
> then the sentence has not been properly translated.

I disagree.  My understanding is that Chinese, for example,
would not normally have anything corresponding to "you", it
being understood that if you're asking a stall holder about
the availability of cabbages, you're interesting in whether
s/he can supply them.  Presumably adding a word for "you"
would add a nuance not there in the English.

Many languages, of course, do not have a verb corresponding
to English "have".  You'd probably say something like "Are
there [any] cabbages?"   And, of course, many languages
would not use a word corresponding to English "any" - but, I
suppose, it will be argued that English "any" is an empty
word, conveying no meaning. So why use it?

Sure, "Do you have any cabbage today?" will have equivalents
in any language where cabbages are known.  But the only two
elements that we can sure will appear in other languages are
"cabbage" (not all languages mark plural) and "today."  If
we insist on having some lexical or grammatical equivalent
of all the other elements in the English sentence, then we
will, I'm sure, often produce something that is more formal
than the English or "sounds foreign" or have other nuances
not implied by the English sentence.

Certainly, in my opinion, the claim that " It follows that
the number of units of meaning _must_ be the same from one
language to another, and the only difference is
how those units are divided up between lexical words and
grammatical 'words' (affixes)" is false.

So much of *meaning* is conveyed by context and emphasis
and, in spoken language, tone of voice and other
extra-linguistic elements - not by lexical words or by
morphology.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]

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