On 2013-03-27 04:38, Douglas Koller wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:42:49 +0100
>> From: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Creating a Conlang with homophones
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> On 2013-03-26 11:17, BPJ wrote:
>>> OK here goes the official list, in alphabetical order.
> Thank you. I did *not* see these coming:
>>> 4) ge -- bagage.
>>> 5) gi -- religiös.
>>> 6) ige -- beige.
>>> 7) j -- jour -- 'emergency duty'.
>>> 8) je -- damejeanne -- obsolete, unlike the name Jeanette.
>>> 9) sc -- crescendo -- I have /ʂ/ rather than /x/ in this word,
>>> 18) ssj -- ryssja -- 'fyke (hoop) net'.
>>> 19) stg -- västgöte -- inhabitant of Västergötland/Västgötland
>>> province, and only in these two words.
> And lo, he did pronounce and make the native speakers cringe.
Heh! I later remembered that there are a couple more _stg_
words: _Östgötland_ + adjective & inhabitant and _gästgivare_
On 2013-03-27 14:52, Roger Mills wrote:
> I've snipped the interesting list, but have an observation:
> It looks to me like these (mostly) could originally
> have been [Z] or [S}, then merging > [S], then > [x]--
> which is also what happened in Spanish !!!! And a lot
> of them are loan words.
Most of those spellings only occur in loan words. The only
'native' ones are _sj, ssj, sk, skj, stj_ and the oddball _stg_.
I doubt any words borrowed from French ever had [ʒ]
*in Swedish* except for some 18th-century showoffs. We
read some of Gustavus III's letters at Uni and there
were some inverted spellings like _Jer Ami_, and if
*he* did it it's a safe bet that everybody had [ʃ] for
French /ʒ/ at the period when most French loans came
> I'm not entirely sure what happens in Dutch, but I do know that "baggage " comes out as "bagasi" in Indonesian, so it looks like something similar has happened to loans there too. And of course in Dutch *sk- > [sx- ~ sX-] and Engl. [S] so maybe we could be on our way to [x[ too, though I doubt it........
The probable reason some Swedish accents shifted
[S] > [x] is that [tɕ] got deaffricized and /rs/
shifted to [ʂ] so that the sibilant space got
somewhat crowded. Finland Swedish accents which
still have [tɕ] for palatalized */k/ even have [ɕ]
where other accents have [ʃ] or [x]. Accents which
didn't shift [ʃ] to [x] (mostly in Central and
Northern Sweden) usually merged it with [ʂ] instead.
Nowadays there seems to be a tendency among younger
people who have [x] to shift /ɕ/ to [ʃ], so it's going
to be interesting to see whether *their* children
will merge /ɕ/ and [ʂ] -- anw whether I'll get to
BTW /x/ has a lot of regional/individual/contextual
allophones, including the famous but actually rare [ɧ],
[x͡ɸ] (which used to be common on the West coast -- my
father had it) and even [ɸ]. Most people at least
around here who have [x] actually have [χ] before back
vowels, and there is a similar variation in /k g ŋ/. I
used to wonder why I couldn't make an [ħ] when what I
thought was [χɑ] actually was [ħɑ]! :-)
BTW, Roger, I saw a car with GWR on the licence plate