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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 4

CONLANG March 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A Philosophical Language as Proto-Conlang

From:

Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 25 Mar 2013 15:01:13 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (142 lines)

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:27 PM, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
---

>> counting words might be initially limited to "one, two, three, many".
>> The lexicon should probably contain pointing words "this" (near me),
>> "that" (near you), "yonder" (far from both of us), also monosyllabic.
>
> I argue that counting words are already too abstract. Let there be
> distinct words for thumbs, fingers, and hands, and one could derive
> numbers from them by combination with the verb "point".

I guess it depends on how far back you want to start. I suppose one
could start with primate grunts and gestures too. The choice of
starting point is arbitrary, but I like mine to be a little bit
further along the hypothetical path from animal noises to modern
language. Otherwise it would take an impractical amount of time to
develop anything useful.

> And 'this' and 'that' are too anglo-centric.

Pointing words are ubiquitous. The three-way distinction
this/that/yonder is definitely not anglo-centric since English has
pretty much dropped the distinction between that and yonder, even
though the distinction is still maintained in other languages.
(Spanish, for example).

> There should just be a
> single demonstrative for drawing the listener's attention to something.
> It could be the equivalent of "hey!", for all we know.
\
---

Again, I think that goes back too far into the prehistory of language
to suit my own preferences. Beside, if there are too few monosyllabic
roots to begin with then coining new words becomes much more difficult
since there is less raw material to work with.

>
>> Sentences would consist of agent/subject before object/patient with
>> action either between those two or after both, with no initial
>> preference for either.
>
> This is too complicated. Sentences should just be a single noun plus a
> single verb.
---

Another arbitrary choice concerning just how "primitive" to begin the
project. I consider my choice to be my own personal "Goldilocks zone"
where it's not too primitive, nor too advanced, but just right. At
some point there has to be an object. If we start with "wood burn"
where "burn" is intransitive, then in order to make "me" the cause of
the wood (agent) burning, some verb with an object needs to be used,
like "I cause (that) wood burn". Rather than make life too complicated
for myself I would prefer to start with some natively transitive
verbs. Besides, I suspect that intransitive verbs may have pre-dated
subordinating conjunctions or implicit subordinate noun clauses.

---

>> For example, suppose the pointing word "ho" means "this/here", and the
>> word "yi" means "person". We could coin a first person singular
>> pronoun from the set phrase "ho yi" = "this person" Later that might
>> be eroded to "hoi", and later still to "oi". Only the vowels remain
>> from the original "ho yi", but the conlang now has a first person
>> singular pronoun with a documented pedigree, rather than some
>> arbitrary word coined out of thin air.
>
> I don't like this. Pronouns should derive directly from nouns (possibly
> proper nouns).

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I prefer to derive
my pronouns from pointing words. Lacking historical precedent I
imagine it's a matter of personal preference.
---

>. The dominant leader simply
> refers to himself as "chief" or "dad" or whatever his name is. Everyone
> else is the equivalent of "underling". Later, the leader dies and the
> subordinates split off into their own groups, so they each regard
> themselves as the leader of their respective group, and start referring
> to themselves as "chief",

---

But how does an underling come to use the same first person singular
pronoun then? Everyone in the tribe does not call himself or herself
"chief", so "chief" can never come to me "I/me". To everyone except
the chief, "chief" means "that person over there". Nope. That doesn't
work for me. (again, a matter of personal taste.)

>
>> Similarly, "you" might begin as "ta yi" = "that (near you) person",

---

>
> "You (singular)" can just be the equivalent of "hey!", and "you
> (plural)" can develop from the combination of "you and you!" (the
> interspersing conjunction can be omitted, if you want to *really* start
> from the bare basics).

That sound reasonable. Of course the conjunction hasn't been invented
yet, so using it would not be permitted until later, probably well
after the pronouns had already emerged.

>

---

>
> There's no reason to prefer prepositions over postpositions. It all
> depends on the order of the initial sentence template. Different paths
> of development could lead to dialects, and eventually full-fledged
> languages in their own right.
>
> Also, given enough time, adpositions can develop into declensions.

True on both counts. If the verb is preferred after the object then
demoted verbs would become postpositions.

Remember too that in theory the whole protolang is unwritten so the
boundary between words is not visually enforced. Merging of words is
much easier without a written form of the language. In practice it
should probably all be written in IPA without any spaces between words
to simulate the continuous sound stream of spoken language.

> [...]
>> If you want a definite article, then you will have to derive it from a
>> pointing word,

---

>
> Definite articles usually arise from demonstratives (this is attested in
> multiple natlangs historically). Demonstratives could arise from just an
> attention-drawing onomapoieum.
>

That works for me.

--gary

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