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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 4

CONLANG March 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Pesky morphemes

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:07:42 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

A longish answer as I sort out my thoughts   :)

On 26/03/2013 00:35, And Rosta wrote:
> R A Brown, On 25/03/2013 14:03:
[snip]
>
>> But, of course, -(e)d ending is not only in preterite
>> contexts, but also in perfect participle contexts
>> (whereas _swam_ and _swum_ distinguish the two
>> contexts).
>
> In my analysis (which I have not presented in this
> discussion), perfect is a variety of preterite. (There's
> a contrast between preteriteness added to tense, which
> gives the 'past tense' inflected forms, and
> preteriteness in other syntactic environments (e.g. added
> to an auxiliary, to yield the perfect construction),
> which gives the default -en participial inflected form.

That's OK, I guess, for the 'perfect tenses' formed by
"have" (or, archaically, with verbs of motion, formed by
"be").  But with transitive verbs the so-called past
participle also does duty as a _passive_ participle.  It
seems to me stretching things a bit to attribute
preteriteness to, say, "It will be seen by everyone."

> Only a mere 65 verbs distinguish past tense from
> participle form.

... and only two AFAIK that distinguish _may_ (i.e. not all
speakers observe this) show a difference between between
perfect and passive participles, cf.
I haven't proved it yet ~ It hasn't been proven.
Lisa has never showed a liking for red wine ~ The proof has
never been shown.

Oddly, those speaker that don't make the distinction use the
weak form 'proved', but the strong form 'shown' for both -
tho I suspect someone will quote speakers who do the
opposite   ;)

But, interesting as an analysis of English verb usage may
be, this is a digression from the subject of morphemes
generally, especially in fusional languages.

[snip]
> rule to state the exceptional affix. I think it's
> simpler to have a rule saying "the worshape of preterite
>  inflected {BUY} is not stem+d but rather _bought_",
>
>> I wondered if, at least, we might have morphonemic
>> //b.UY,OUGH// ??
>
> Seems reasonable.

Yes, on reflexion, it better to think of _bought_ as a
single word-form, rather than try to decompose it
phonologically into two separate morphemes.  By doing so, I
realize now, one is merely encapsulating it diachronic
development - which happens to be known to us

I should have read on in  Trask and not just have quoted his
definition of 'morpheme' simply to back up my thesis tat a
morpheme is not the same as a "unit of meaning."  I should
have read on.

Not only would I have learnt that the term is older than I
had thought - its first attested use being by Baudoin de
Courtney in 1895 (_Versuch einer Theorie der phonetischen
Alternationen_, Strasbourg) - and that there was
considerable variation in the use of the word until "the
modern sense was established by Bloomfield (1933)" but I
would have got(ten) a better idea how Trask, at least,
understood 'morphemes.'

But before dealing with that, it seems to me that Trask is
in error in saying that modern usage is _established_ if
this thread is anything to go by!  It seems to me that there
is still some variation in usage     :)

Some may, indeed, continue to think Trask in error when I
expound below the way I'm coming to think about morphemes   ;)

An important statement of Trask's is that a "morpheme is an
abstract unit which may or may not be realized by a fairly
consistent stretch of phonological material."  There two
important things there IMO. One is that a morpheme (like,
indeed, a phoneme) is an _abstract_ unit.

When we start to confuse a physical realization of something
abstract with the abstraction itself, we can IMO confuse
both ourselves and others - hence the confusion every so
often on this list between phonemic & phonetic symbolism.

We have, it seems to me, been talking about the phonological
realization of morphemes rather than about morphemes
themselves, whether the morpheme concerned is suffixes (e.g.
loved) or infixed (e.g. swam).  But Trask explicitly says
"which may or may not be realized by a ... stretch of
phonological material."

He goes to to say that "a noun plural in English usually
consists of two morphemes, a noun stem and the morpheme
{Plural}."  But tho {Plural} is generally realized (in my
lect) as [ɪz], [z] or [s], there are others, e.g. sheep,
men, children, mice, radii, formulae, criteria, cherubim,
passers-by.  Trask represents _feet_ as: {_foot_} plus {Plural}

>> The verb _see, saw, seen_ would seem to have at least
>> //s.EE,AW// (the comma is probably not the correct
>> symbol)
>
> (Make up the symbols as you see fit!) That also seems
> reasonable.

Thanks. But, following Trask, I will represent _saw_ as:
{_see_} plus {Preterite}.

As Trask treats _seen_ both as a perfect participle _and_ as
a passive participle, I'm not sure how he would describe
_seen_ morphemically.

>> I guess I'm trying to get a unified way of describing
>> what happens to English verbs in a preterite and in a
>> perfect participle context.
>
> Yes, that makes sense.

Thanks. I think I'm getting there, tho you may not go along
the way I'm dealing with things.

>> I was doing this with English verbs in order to get a
>> better idea how to describe the Latin verbal stems,
>> e.g. see: vidē ~ vīd ~ vīs break: frang ~ frēg ~ frāct
>>  love: amā ~ amāv ~ amāt etc.
>>
>> The morphemic approach poses problems, and the
>> morphonemic approach doesn't appear any more helpful
>> ;)
>
> The amaa one looks relatively tractable.

At first glance one might suggest:
{amā} plus {Perfectum} realized as _amāv_
{amā) plus {Supinum} realized as _amāt_

BUT see below ...

I'll say no more about {Perfectum} other than the term is
used in L.R. Palmer in his "The Latin Language" (1954,
London), in contrast to Infectum ('present stem').

> Even the others could be handled like your suggestions
> for SEE and BUY, no?

Well, _frang_ has, as do some other verbs, an infixed -n-
so, maybe:
{frag} plus {Infectum} realized as _frang_
{frag} plus {Perfectum} realized as _frēg_
{frag) plus {Supinum} realized as _frāct_

The morpheme {frag} is justified by words such as:
_fragīlis_ "brittle, fragile;  _fragmentum_  "piece broken
off, fragment"; _fragor_ "a breaking, crash"; _fragōsus_
"fragile, apt to be broken".

Indeed, the verb "to have" (regular in Latin!) with the
three stems - habē, habu, habit - clearly suggest that
{Infectum} is a morpheme, i.e.
{hab} plus {Infectum} realized as _habē_
{hab} plus {Perfectum} realized as _habu_
{hab) plus {Supinum} realized as _habit_

Also, remembering that besides the verb _amāre_, we have the
nouns _amor_ "love" and _amīcus_ "friend", clearly IMO we
should have:
{am} plus {Infectun} realized as _amā_
{am} plus {Perfectum} realized as _amāv_
{am) plus {Supinum} realized as _amāt_

Of course __amā_, __amāv_ and _amāt_ and the other triads
are all _stems_ or _bases_ onto which suffixes are appended.
I guess _habeō_ would be divided up thus //hab.e.ō//, the
them vowel -ē- being shortened before -ō.

But what are we make the final -ō.  It's the personal ending
morpheme, I hear some say.  True, but if we are dealing with
_abstract_ grammatical units, then we have, I guess:
{1st Person} plus {Singular} plus {Active} all realized as
the single vowel -ō.

Oh the joys of fusional languages   ;)

> Roger Mills, On 25/03/2013 16:48:
[snip]
>
>> and how could it possibly account for be, am/are,
>> was/were, been?
>
> If a morphoneme is merely an alternation between chunks
> of phonological form, then you could have a morphoneme
> //be,am,are,was,were// (using Ray's notation).

As, following Trask, I've now adopted the notion that
morphemes are abstract and may be or may _not_ be realized
as chunks of alternating phonological forms, we now enter a
different world.

How, for example, can you satisfactorily split up Latin
_sum_ ("I am") in any meaningful morphonemic, or into
morphemes as credible phonological chunks?
I have seen it variously split as _su.m_, _s.um_ or _s.u.m_
- none seem entirely satisfactory to me.

I suppose, contrasting with _sumus_ "we are" and _sunt_
"they are" we could abstract su- as the 'stem'; but it falls
a bit flat when we consider _es_ "you [s.] are", _est_
"s/he, it is" and _estis_ "you (pl) are."

I suggest
_sum_ is the realization of {es} + {1st Person} plus
{Singular} plus {Active}
(Tho as the verb "to be" cannot be passive , maybe {Active}
is redundant; tho those who know Latin will know that if a
1st person singular form ends in -m it must be active -
passive has -r, or -or)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]

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March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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