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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 4

CONLANG March 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Is there an inverse relationship between lexical richness and grammatical complexity?

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 22 Mar 2013 04:27:38 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (135 lines)

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:37 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > On 21/03/2013 17:05, Gary Shannon wrote:
> > [snip]
> >>
> >>
> >> If a translation of "See the boy." into a language that
> >> lacks a definite article fails to covey that sense of
> >> "the boy", then that language is at least mildly
> >> deficient in that it cannot convey such meanings.
> >
> >
> > Ouch! A bit anglocentric, methinks.
>
> ---
>
> I also pointed out how English was deficient. You edited that part out,
>
> > Also, of course, it is incorrect. I do not know of a
> > language that _cannot_ convey the meaning of definiteness,
> > _if it is required_.  The point is that many languages,
> > including important ones like Russian and Chinese, do not
> > require nouns always to marked for definiteness or
> > indefiniteness.
>
> I agree. I imagine that all languages CAN mark for definiteness. But
> if, in a specific translation, they do NOT mark for definiteness then
> the translation is not a complete translation, and is somewhat
> deficient, lacking some information present in the original.
>
> ---
>
> >
> >> In spite of those deficiencies, however, it is still
> >> possible to communicate clearly and completely enough to
> >>  build bridges, buy and sell cabbages, and sing love
> >> songs.
> >
> >
> > We know all this. I do not imagine that anyone would
> > seriously disagree.
> >
> > The problem is with the statements in your email of the
> > 20th March:
> > "In point of fact, if two sentences in two different
> > languages carry nearly identical meaning then each element
> > of that shared meaning _must_ be carried by some element of
> > the sentence, regardless of whether the carrier
> > is a word or an affix. It follows that the number of units
> > of meaning _must_ be the same from one language to another,
> > and the only difference is how those units are divided up
> > between lexical words and grammatical 'words' (affixes)."
> >
> > You seem to be saying that the number of morphemes in one
> > language is going to be the same in another.  That just
> > ain't so.
>
> ---
>
> If a translated sentence carries the same number of units of
> information as the original then it contains the same number of units
> of information. That's a tautology. How many morphemes per unit of
> information may differ from one language to another. (I don't recall
> talking about morphemes.)
>
> >> That is all that matters to an engineer. The rest is
> >> theoretical ivory tower stuff of no _practical_ value.
>
> ---
>
> > How very sad. Also, like all generalizations, I am pleased
> > to say, it is not universally true.  Despite the
> > stereotypical image, some engineers do appreciate literature
> > and poetry, and don't confine it to an 'impractical' ivory
> > tower.
> >
>
> You have conflated "all that matters to an engineer in his role as an
> engineer" with "all that matters to an engineer as a human being".
> Surely you didn't mean to imply that every person is nothing more than
> his career.
>
> As a human being I love literature an poetry, and art and sculpture.
> But as an engineer perspective and chiaroscuro (let alone symbolic use
> of form and color) don't concern me when I'm engineering a molecule
> for a paint pigment, and balanced composition and use of space don't
> concern me when I'm engineering a rivet for a bridge.
>
> Nor do nuances concern me when I'm exploring taking a rough measure of
> the information content of a sentence. I think quarks and Higgs bosons
> are fascinating things. I just don't take them into account when
> measuring the opening for a gate in my garden fence.
>
> My rough measure of units of meaning in a sentence is the gate in the
> garden fence, not the quantum wave function of the unobserved virtual
> fence.
>
> "My red crayon is broken."
> Carries four (?) units of meaning:
>
> 1. There exists an instance X of the class crayon.
> 2. I own X.
> 3. X is red.
> 4. X is broken.
>
> That's four units of meaning in a five word sentence. (Perhaps there
> are more units of meaning?)
>
> The sentence "I have a crayon that is both read and broken." has ten
> words, but seems to carry the same four units of meaning in a
> different encoding.
>
> How, then, does "unit of meaning" relate to "morpheme"?.
>

A morpheme is the smallest meaningful unit of a language. It's synonymous
with "unit of meaning".

stevo

>
> --gary
>
> > --
> > Ray
> > ==================================
> > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> > ==================================
> > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> > for individual beings and events."
> > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
>

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