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CONLANG  April 2013, Week 4

CONLANG April 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Edeinal: Language of the Edeinos

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:18:10 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

On 12 April 2013 13:04, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:58:14PM -0600, Logan Kearsley wrote:
>> On 11 April 2013 20:00, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[...]
>> > And *I* thought I was being ambitious, having invented an entire
>> > universe (complete with its own version of the Big Bang origin
>> > theory and "physics" that looks nothing even remotely resembling
>> > real-world physics) in which the Ebisédian homeworld exists, and
>> > outlining a history of the Ebisédi which includes travel to other
>> > universes... ;-) (Turns out I had trouble even working a single
>> > story to completion, much less fill in all the details of an entire
>> > universe, or outlining several other universes for that matter.
>> > Ahhh, the youthful dreams of attaining the unattainable and
>> > conquering beyond the conquerable!)
>>
>> I wonder, have you ever come across the webcomic Unicorn Jelly (and
>> sequels)?  It's all about life in a wildly different universe in which
>> humans get deposited in the distant past by some catastrophic natural
>> cosmic event. Eventually, with the help of the native life forms, they
>> develop the technology to intentionally travel between universes, and
>> create new ones, and go in search of their original home... but are
>> doomed to never find it because whenever they get close, they just
>> can't imagine that life could possibly evolve in such a radically
>> alien cosmos. :)
>
> Hmm. I skimmed quickly over some pages of it, and I note that it comes
> nowhere near the level of ... alienness ... of Ferochromon, the
> Ebisédian homeworld. ;-) For one thing, it's still largely based on
> things familiar to our universe, perhaps with a modification or three.

There is a bit of a selection effect in the story universe- weirder
cosmi are implied to exist, but the characters only visit places where
it's possible for them to exist!
While it is clearly wildly different in many other ways, lots of your
descriptions of the Ferochromon remind me of various aspects of the
Unicorn Jelly cosmi. I wonder if that says something about general
psychological tendencies when humans try to make up worlds.
The Ebisedi with their proclivity for describing everything in threes
would probably feel quite at home in Tryslmaistan (the primary cosmos
of Unicorn Jelly) as physics there genuinely does favor triplets of
everything (three electric-equivalent charges, space segmented in a
triangular-faceted latticework, etc.).

> Photons don't exist here; light is an
> inherent property of matter.  Sight, while still (more or less) based on
> perspective projection, is definitely *not* what we understand as sight
> in the Terran universe.

That's... odd. Do you have an explanation for how light/sight does
work in the Ferochromon?

> But that's getting a bit too technical. On a more practical level, there
> are no such things as stars, orbiting planetary systems, or planets.
> The Ebisédi live on "landmasses": irregularly-shaped chunks of
> crystalline matter, and are for the most part kept on the surface by
> convergent forces (the Ferochromon analogue of gravity) that mostly lie
> perpendicular to the surface. In the sky, one may see various phenomena
> such as the _Ka'l3ri_ ["k_hal@\ri], conventionally translated as
> "starburst" -- energetic phenomena that eject hot matter outwards;
> _vyy'i_ ["vy:?i], which are whirlpool-like phenomena that consume
> matter, sometimes on astronomical scales (think galaxy-sized
> blackholes); streams of matter flows, that look like rivers in the sky;
> fragments of solidified matter that form "continents" or landmasses that
> are sometimes habitable; and many other such fascinating things that
> have no Terran equivalents.

My alternate-universe building tends to be in the vein of a) keeping
to things that could actually be explained by real physical theories,
just with the parameters twiddled and b) making Space Fantasy sort of
stuff actually possible. E.g., "what would physics have to look like
to get planets that really are flat, so you can sail a ship off the
edge?" My favorite attempt so far was a universe where gravitons have
mass, so gravity obeys a Yukawa potential, which means planets are
held together by surface tension, and can take on a wide variety of
odd shapes (including flat discs). Never managed to figure out how to
tweak things to ensure that stars still worked, though (or *some* kind
of natural energy source, anyway; I'm not quite willing to evoke
magical entropy-reducing structures built into the cosmos yet!) I'm
not sure if this is a symptom or a cause of the fact that every time I
try to write fantasy, it accidentally ends up being hard science
fiction by the end.

> Well, that's quite enough hijacking of this thread. :-P  This is all
> just barely scratching the surface of the Ferochromon, of course, but
> further details belong in elsewhere. :) Suffice it to say that the
> Ferochromon is very, *very* alien, much more so than most fantasy alien
> worlds.

I believe it! Thinking up truly weird universes is fun, but it's just
hard to come up with ways to tell stories in them.
Every once in a while I think of doing a story involving inter-cosmic
travel, but I have never yet been able to get my hard-science-oriented
brain past the problem of how to transport characters across a domain
wall separating regions of space with different laws (or how to allow
them to do interesting things through a domain wall)..
Do you have an opinion on the Cheela environment from Robert Forward's
_Dragon's Egg_? It's strictly still our universe, but a very strange
little corner of it.

>> > My favorite example of Russian prosody/tone-of-voice is how one asks
>> > questions vs. state a fact: none of the words change, neither the
>> > word order (for the most part), just the overall tone contour of the
>> > entire clause follows the indicative pattern or the question
>> > pattern.
>>
>> I feel it should be noted that Russian *does* also have a special
>> syntactic form for questions, and English *can* also make use of
>> prosody alone. But Russian does lean much more towards using prosody,
>> and English does lean much more towards using special syntax.
>>
>> I now find myself somewhat annoyed that I know that I know how to use
>> the "-li" vs. prosodic interrogatives Russian, but I have no idea how
>> to *explain* it. Sometimes, one just feels better than the other. And
>> I suppose my non-native intuitions about that are probably slightly
>> different from native intuitions anyway.
>
> I guess my command of Russian is still not that good, but my last
> impression was that ли constructions were used mainly in indirect
> questions (he asked whether this was permitted) whereas prosodic
> interrogatives were used in direct/quotes discourse. Or at least, when I
> last tried to use a ли construction as a direct question with my Russian
> friend, he didn't quite understand what I was trying to say.

It definitely *is* used for indirect speech, and less common in direct
discourse, but every once in a while it pops up in direct discourse
anyway. I kind of suspect it might be a formulaic / idiomatic thing.

>> And that reminds me about how I had such a difficult time in my
>> semantics class this afternoon trying to explain the proper colloquial
>> usage of "rebjata" and why it is not quite the same as "dudes" or
>> "guys"; I probably made a complete hash of it, and really wished our
>> actual Russian student were around to help me out, but sadly she is
>> gone and won't be back from Russia again until the fall.  And it's not
>> like there's a serious shortage of Russians to ask around here, but
>> none of them were in class with me....
>
> Ребята? Isn't that more like "boyz" than "dudes"? (Not that I'd know,
> though -- my conversational Russian is still rather poor, as my main
> exposure to the language is via written materials.)

Well, sort of... like I said, it's *not* really the same as "dudes".
But "boyz" feels wrong to me, too, 'cause my 80-year-old grandma would
*not* address a group of young men as "dudes" or "boyz-with-a-z",
while 80-year-old Ukrainian women most definitely throw around
"ребята" like it ain't no thang.

Incidentally, I also recently discovered some very interesting things
about short-vs.-long form selection for Russian predicate adjectives
as part of a corpus project. Gave me lots of conlanging ideas.

-l.

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
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August 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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