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CONLANG  May 2013, Week 5

CONLANG May 2013, Week 5

Subject:

Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"

From:

James Kane <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 31 May 2013 15:44:36 +1200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines)

Hmmm, looking it up it seams that 'comment dit-on X' is more common, although 'comment se dit X' is used but with a more passive meaning, à la 'how is X is said'.


James

Sent from my iPhone

On 31/05/2013, at 3:24 PM, Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> i am the last person who should be giving authoritative information about
> french, but i always heard "comment dit-on 'X'?" which sounds like a
> shortened (and possibly equally legitimate) version of Christophe's.
>
> in turkish it's "'X' [Türkçe] ne demek?" = "X (is) to say what in Turkish?"
> (lit. "X [in.Turkish] what say-INF")
>
> in arabic it's not very interesting, the general way just means "how (do)
> you say X in-the-Arabic?"
>
> in german you can say "Wie sagt man X (auf Deutsch)?" = "how says one X in
> German?" but i've also heard "wie/was heißt X?" ("how/what is X called?) to
> ask how something should be translated.
>
> in dutch, "hoe zeg je X?" = "how say you X?"
>
> and as my examples get less and less interesting, i will cease, and ponder
> how to do it in my emergent proto-lang, which is probably what people are
> more interested in (myself included).
>
> matt
>
>
> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM, James Kane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>>> There is a distinction between 'how do you say X in LANGUAGE' and 'what
>>>> does this word mean'. It looks like you are asking for the latter. The
>>>> former would be expressed in French by (I think) 'comment se dit X' as
>> in
>>>> 'comment se dit 'refrigerator' en français?' rather than 'qu'est-ce que
>> le
>>>> mot 'frigo' veut dire en anglais?'.
>>> Quick correction: "How do you say X in LANGUAGE?" in French would be
>>> "Comment est-ce qu'on dit X en LANGUE ?", with the impersonal "on" rather
>>> than a reflexive. The reflexive sounds nearly like X is trying to say
>>> itself!
>>
>> I have always been taught 'comment se dit X'. I think Spanish also uses a
>> reflexive construction, 'como se dice'. Your way sounds quite formal,
>> although I'm not fluent though so I am probably wrong.
>>
>> Come to think of, 'qu'est-ce que le mot X veut dire en LANGUE' sounds a
>> bit formal as well, maybe 'que veut dire X en LANGUE' might be more
>> conversational.
>>
>>
>> James
>>
>>> On 30 May 2013 23:17, Jyri Lehtinen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> These are all different case forms of the language name, but you can add
>>>> adpositional examples to the list equally as well. For example "in
>> English"
>>>> and "auf Deutsch" are similar but not completely identical to each
>> other.
>>> French uses the preposition "en": "en français". Interestingly, "en" has
>> an
>>> instrumental meaning when used with vehicles: "en vélo": "by bike", "en
>>> voiture": "by car".
>>>
>>> Dutch is somewhat weird, in that it simply uses the preposition "in", as
>> in
>>> English, but requires the neuter article in front of the language name:
>> "in
>>> het Nederlands".
>>>
>>>
>>>> You didn't ask it but an interesting side point is how to deal with
>>>> language names in the sentence "I speak X", where it's semantically an
>>>> object rather than an adverbial. Both Finnic and Saamic treat the
>> language
>>>> name as a regular direct object (as does English).
>>>
>>>
>>> And French.
>>>
>>>
>>>> This means that in North
>>>> Saami you use the accusative case ("Mun human sámegiela", "giela" =
>>>> language.ACC) and in Finnish and Estonian the partitive case ("Puhun
>>>> suomea", "suome-a" = Finnish-PART / "Ma räägin eesti keelt", "keel-t" =
>>>> language-PART). In the Permic languages, however, you keep the language
>>>> name in the instrumental case even though it acts as a direct object of
>> the
>>>> verb (Komi: "Сёрнита комиӧн", "коми-ӧн" = Komi-INSTR). Mari works the
>> same
>>>> way but quite unusually uses its so called comparative case ("Марла
>> попем",
>>>> "мар-ла" = Mari-COMPA). The basic use of this case is to indicate
>>>> similarity of action or state.
>>> Be careful however not to claim that "I speak X" is semantically
>> transitive
>>> in *all* languages. In Basque for instance, the equivalent of "to speak"
>> is
>>> the expression "hitz egin": "to make word". Since the object slot is
>>> already taken by "hitz", the resulting expression has to be semantically
>>> intransitive. And indeed, the language spoken in such a sentence is once
>>> again in the instrumental: "euskaraz hitz egin dut": "I speak Basque"
>>> (literally: "I make word in Basque").
>>>
>>> ObConlang: in my Moten, the equivalent of "to speak" is the verb
>> _igebezi_,
>>> which is strictly intransitive (Moten verbs are strict when it comes to
>>> transitivity, and cannot change willy-nilly like English verbs). As in
>>> Basque, the expression "I speak X" requires the instrumental form of the
>>> language name: _komotenku|leju igebezi ito_: "(I) speak Moten".
>>> --
>>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>>>
>>> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>>

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