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CONLANG  May 2013, Week 5

CONLANG May 2013, Week 5

Subject:

Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 May 2013 22:24:06 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

i am the last person who should be giving authoritative information about
french, but i always heard "comment dit-on 'X'?" which sounds like a
shortened (and possibly equally legitimate) version of Christophe's.

in turkish it's "'X' [Türkçe] ne demek?" = "X (is) to say what in Turkish?"
(lit. "X  [in.Turkish] what say-INF")

in arabic it's not very interesting, the general way just means "how (do)
you say X in-the-Arabic?"

in german you can say "Wie sagt man X (auf Deutsch)?" = "how says one X in
German?" but i've also heard "wie/was heißt X?" ("how/what is X called?) to
ask how something should be translated.

in dutch, "hoe zeg je X?" = "how say you X?"

and as my examples get less and less interesting, i will cease, and ponder
how to do it in my emergent proto-lang, which is probably what people are
more interested in (myself included).

matt


On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM, James Kane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> >> There is a distinction between 'how do you say X in LANGUAGE' and 'what
> >> does this word mean'. It looks like you are asking for the latter. The
> >> former would be expressed in French by (I think) 'comment se dit X' as
> in
> >> 'comment se dit 'refrigerator' en français?' rather than 'qu'est-ce que
> le
> >> mot 'frigo' veut dire en anglais?'.
> > Quick correction: "How do you say X in LANGUAGE?" in French would be
> > "Comment est-ce qu'on dit X en LANGUE ?", with the impersonal "on" rather
> > than a reflexive. The reflexive sounds nearly like X is trying to say
> > itself!
>
> I have always been taught 'comment se dit X'. I think Spanish also uses a
> reflexive construction, 'como se dice'. Your way sounds quite formal,
> although I'm not fluent though so I am probably wrong.
>
> Come to think of, 'qu'est-ce que le mot X veut dire en LANGUE' sounds a
> bit formal as well, maybe 'que veut dire X en LANGUE' might be more
> conversational.
>
>
> James
>
> > On 30 May 2013 23:17, Jyri Lehtinen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> These are all different case forms of the language name, but you can add
> >> adpositional examples to the list equally as well. For example "in
> English"
> >> and "auf Deutsch" are similar but not completely identical to each
> other.
> > French uses the preposition "en": "en français". Interestingly, "en" has
> an
> > instrumental meaning when used with vehicles: "en vélo": "by bike", "en
> > voiture": "by car".
> >
> > Dutch is somewhat weird, in that it simply uses the preposition "in", as
> in
> > English, but requires the neuter article in front of the language name:
> "in
> > het Nederlands".
> >
> >
> >> You didn't ask it but an interesting side point is how to deal with
> >> language names in the sentence "I speak X", where it's semantically an
> >> object rather than an adverbial. Both Finnic and Saamic treat the
> language
> >> name as a regular direct object (as does English).
> >
> >
> > And French.
> >
> >
> >> This means that in North
> >> Saami you use the accusative case ("Mun human sámegiela", "giela" =
> >> language.ACC) and in Finnish and Estonian the partitive case ("Puhun
> >> suomea", "suome-a" = Finnish-PART / "Ma räägin eesti keelt", "keel-t" =
> >> language-PART). In the Permic languages, however, you keep the language
> >> name in the instrumental case even though it acts as a direct object of
> the
> >> verb (Komi: "Сёрнита комиӧн", "коми-ӧн" = Komi-INSTR). Mari works the
> same
> >> way but quite unusually uses its so called comparative case ("Марла
> попем",
> >> "мар-ла" = Mari-COMPA). The basic use of this case is to indicate
> >> similarity of action or state.
> > Be careful however not to claim that "I speak X" is semantically
> transitive
> > in *all* languages. In Basque for instance, the equivalent of "to speak"
> is
> > the expression "hitz egin": "to make word". Since the object slot is
> > already taken by "hitz", the resulting expression has to be semantically
> > intransitive. And indeed, the language spoken in such a sentence is once
> > again in the instrumental: "euskaraz hitz egin dut": "I speak Basque"
> > (literally: "I make word in Basque").
> >
> > ObConlang: in my Moten, the equivalent of "to speak" is the verb
> _igebezi_,
> > which is strictly intransitive (Moten verbs are strict when it comes to
> > transitivity, and cannot change willy-nilly like English verbs). As in
> > Basque, the expression "I speak X" requires the instrumental form of the
> > language name: _komotenku|leju igebezi ito_: "(I) speak Moten".
> > --
> > Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> >
> > http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

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