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CONLANG  May 2013, Week 5

CONLANG May 2013, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Revising Tirelat romanization

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 29 May 2013 15:16:03 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (100 lines)

On Tue, 28 May 2013 21:13:23 -0400, Herman Miller wrote:

>I've been thinking for some time that it might be better to spell out
>Tirelat affricates as <ts> and <dz> instead of <ċ> and <ż>. For one thing,
>natlangs never pronounce these as /ts/ and /dz/, and for another, spelling
>them as <ts> and <dz> makes the pronunciation obvious.

I've made a similar decision when abandoning single-letter representations
of the affricates. I used to have German-style ⟨z⟩ for /ts/, ⟨k⟩ for /kx/
(while /k/ was represented by Medieval-style ⟨c⟩) and ⟨č⟩ for /tʃ/,
sometimes even ⟨p̌⟩ for /pf/. I've abandoned them all in favour of ⟨ts⟩,
⟨kx⟩ and ⟨tš⟩ (and ⟨pf⟩). While I liked the single-letter representations,
I think the two-letter representations are less ambiguous and more
straightforward.

>Now I'm starting to think that I should just simply avoid the letter <x>
>in any of my languages. I've been thinking about the name "Xora Xhoan
>Daxos" from the "Game of Thrones" series. If it's meant to be pronounced
>"Zora Zoan Daksos", as the actors do, why not just spell it that way? If
>it's meant to be pronounced differently, no one can know which of the many
>pronunciations of <x> is intended.
>
>The obvious fix is to use <kh> for the /x/ sound. It could be mistaken for
>/k.h/ as in "backhand" or "sinkhole", but not much else, and Tirelat
>doesn't have an /h/ sound. Plus it gives me an excuse to write <gh> for
>/ɣ/. I've never much liked <ġ> or <ğ>, or any of the alternatives like
><ƣ> ("gha", U+01A3).

I've never bothered to look up the history of that curiously misnamed
character before. Blackletter hand ⟨q⟩, go figure!

I like your reasoning in favour of ⟨kh⟩ for /x/. I've also had my troubles
with that sound, though I need to differentiate it from /kx/, /h/ and the
cluster /kh/ (or /kkh/). I used to represent /h/ with ⟨'⟩ (kinda Greek) and
/x/ with ⟨h⟩. When this felt too awkward, I searched for another /x/
letter. I've considered ⟨ȟ⟩, but I don't like it much (also, it appears not
to be much used). For a while, I've tried ⟨ħ⟩. For now, I've settled with
⟨x⟩ (along with ⟨kx⟩).

>2. <ng> for /ŋ/. While this would make typing easier, there's always the
>problem of how to represent /ŋɡ/, and the obvious solutions are <ngg> or
><n'g>. Since nasal+stop clusters in Tirelat are always homorganic, <mg>
>would also work. But it still seems like <ŋ> is the best way to spell /ŋ/.

The ingenuity of ⟨mg⟩ (though I probably wouldn't use it either)! I have
simply chosen ⟨g⟩ for /ŋ/ -- since there is no /g/. It's not as bad as it
may seem at first sight, since between vowels, it is always long, and it
often occurs in the cluster /ŋk/, so many instances are ⟨gg⟩ or ⟨gk⟩, which
is not too far from /ŋ/ when you consider Greek.

>3. <y> for /j/. Spelling /j/ as <y> would leave <j> free to represent
>/dʒ/, which exists in some conservative dialects. But there's nothing
>much wrong with <dž>, and I'd need a new spelling for /ɨ/, which I'm
>currently writing as <y>.
>
>4. <lh> for /ɬ/. While it's a nice analogy with <rh>, I think the letter
><ł> should be familiar enough that there's no need to change it. A worse
>problem is potential confusion with /ʎ/.

The same criterion of minimal ambiguity that you've so rigorously applied
in the case of ⟨x⟩ could also be applied here: ⟨ł⟩ is potentially
ambiguous. My first associations are /ɫ/ and /w/. That's why I think ⟨lh⟩
would be more consistent with your other choices.

>5. Double letters for long vowels. This would be reasonable, but Tirelat
>actually uses a letter to mark long vowels in its native alphabet, and <h>
>seems like the best way to spell this character in a romanized version.

Again, by the criterion of minimal ambiguity I think doubled vowel letters
would be preferrable. I think a misreading of ⟨ah⟩ (as /ah/) is more likely
than a misreading of ⟨aa⟩ (as dissyllabic /a.a/).



On Wed, 29 May 2013 18:36:26 +0200, BPJ wrote:

>I would like to make it more consistent, and
>would preferably use <ħ/ꝁ> /χ/,

There is a letter ꝁ/Ꝁ! Why haven't I added it yet to my compose sequences?
And done. However (fortunately), this is no suitable candidate for
representing /x/ in my system, since I have no other stroked consonants.



On Wed, 29 May 2013 19:19:57 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>> I could live with <m ṃ n ṇ ň ṇ̌ ŋ ŋ̇ l ḷ r ṛ> if I only could get them
>> all precomposed!
>> >
>Precomposed characters are nice, but this kind of thing is what combining
>diacritics are made for, so don't be shy of using them.
>
That's what I'd say, too. What is your reason for preferring precomposed
characters?

-- 
grüess
mach

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