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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 1

CONLANG June 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Jun 2013 08:58:19 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (89 lines)

--- Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > Tweakage of these "modernised" or "revived" languages notwithstanding,
> > they are clearly direct descendants of older natural languages. 
> > (English and French are also tweaked to some degree -- both have 
> > standard and educated forms that are consciously maintained and 
> > preserved from normal change, but they are not considered to be any 
> > less Germanic or Romance for it.) E-o may well be on its way to 
> > becoming a naturalised conlang, but can't be said to be a direct 
> > descendant of any language. It was, after all, the creation from whole 
> > cloth of its singular inventor.
>
> AFAIK there was little influence of non-Indo-European languages in
> E-o, so it's a descendant of Indo-European languages in this sense.

Well, no. There was little influence of non-IE languages in Avantmannish,
but that doesn't make it a direct descendant of IE either, even though it
qvacks much like a Germanic language! E-o was a created language, as is
Avantiamannish and a whole host of other languages that behave much like
IE languages.

> BTW, the notion that a language can't be, say, Indo-European and
> Afro-Asiatic at the same time comes from a strict tree model, and I
> see no reason for it to be strict.

I'm not sure how a language would be both A-A and I-E at the same time.
Unless you're positing some midway family that descends sisterwise from
some common ancestor of both A-A and I-E? 

Or unless one is descended from the other...

--- On Thu, 6/6/13, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > > > It was here, some time last year. "Indo-European" is defined by
> > > > descent from a common ancestor through an unbroken continuity of
> > > > speakers.
> 
> > > Don't Modern Hebrew and Sanskrit pose a problem to this
> > > definition?
> 
> > No more than Latin or any other ancient language that finds new life 
> > in a new age among people that never spoke it natively. Me, I don't 
> > place so much emphasis on the "unbroken continuity of speakers"
> > aspect of the definition. After all, Cornish remains a Celtic
> > language even though it's continuity of speakers was broken for some 
> > decades between Mrs. Pentreath and the modern revival. Revived Hebrew 
> > and Modern Latin or Modern Sanskrit are clearly modified though 
> > descended from the ancient languages spoken by their original 
> > communities. Heck, even *ancient* Sanskrit was modified by that great 
> > conlanger, Panini! ;))
> 
> Indeed.  "Unbroken continuity" was a mistake. It depends on the *kind* 
> of breakage, rather.

Right. If the breakage is one of time and a later group simply starts
learning what is known of the language, then I don't see an issue. I
guess if someone wants to start talking Gaulish, a langauge for which we
have little knowledge, then the language that ends up being learned must
be a heavily reconstructed language. I wouldn't call that language a
direct descendant of Gaulish so much as a Celtic conlang based on Gaulish;
I'd also say that the continuity is well and truly broken in that instance!

> > Tweakage of these "modernised" or "revived" languages notwithstanding,
> > they are clearly direct descendants of older natural languages. 
> > (English and French are also tweaked to some degree -- both have
> > standard and educated forms that are consciously maintained and
> > preserved from normal change, but they are not considered to be any 
> > less Germanic or Romance for it.)
> 
> Yes, the line between standardized natlangs and conlangs is
> not all that easy to draw!

Sure! I've said a time or two that Classical Latin is a kind of conlang.
A group project to be sure.

> > E-o may well be on its way to becoming a naturalised conlang, but
> > can't be said to be a direct descendant of any language. It was, after
> > all, the creation from whole cloth of its singular inventor.
> 
> Yes.  And it does not really matter much where the author got
> his whole cloth from, though one could indeed say that it was
> *based* on several languages from four different branches of
> Indo-European, which is not the same as saying that it *is*
> Indo-European.

Yes.

Padraic

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