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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 1

CONLANG June 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"

From:

"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Jun 2013 17:33:24 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (171 lines)

On Mon, Jun 03, 2013 at 06:33:24PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 5:26 PM, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[...]
> > I think in some languages, deliberately using polite forms where one
> > would normally use casual forms is a way of snubbing the other party
> > and/or indicating that they're in trouble -- e.g. when your parents
> > call you by your full name in English. (I had my dad do that to me
> > in Chinese before -- but I'm not certain whether that's a borrowing
> > from English, rather than a native mode of expression.)
> 
> 
> Another example I can think of (related to your Russian example I
> didn't quote), I once read a story in Spanish, where a man is carrying
> his son on his shoulders, talking to him using the form "usted" (which
> is a formal form). My guess was that this was to convey emotional
> distance, since the man was not saying particularly kind things (the
> son does not respond, for reasons that are important to the plot).
> 
> 
> > > I know that in Chinese, I have had friends complain about using
> > > 你好 (ni2hao3 "hello"), because it is too formal for use with
> > > close friends.  I think it makes them uncomfortable to hear it
> > > when they think that the relationship is too close for it to be
> > > used.
> >
> > Yeah, ni2hao3 is pretty formal. I think it's really reserved for
> > strangers and formal occasions where in English you'd greet them by
> > last name (Mr. So-and-So, etc.).
> >
> > With close friends among your peers, you can often just greet them
> > by their name or pet name (if you're close enough -- e.g., "ah1
> > wen2!", "ah1 xiang2!", etc.).
> >
> 
> Not quite certain what your e.g. is about.  (Note, pinyin is useful
> for the board members who don't read Han characters or get them broken
> by the encoding in their email, but I can read them or look them up as
> necessary.)

I apologize for the unclear explanation, the examples are for shortened
names used between close friends. Pet names? Or nicknames? It may be
something borrowed from Taiwanese/Hokkien, though -- we have a tendency
of shortening given names to a single syllable and prefixing /ah/. For
example, my aunt's name (in Hokkien) is "sin hui", and her siblings call
her "ah hui". (I'm not allowed to address her like that, though, it'd be
considered an insult!) I don't know if Beijing people have this
practice, maybe not.

Sadly, I'm illiterate in Chinese, so I can only transcribe phonetically.
:-/


> I wonder if it is borrowed from Anglophone culture.  My understanding
> (correct me if I am wrong) is that it's not terribly uncommon for
> Chinese to call someone by their full name even in fairly familiar
> circumstances.  Of course, most Chinese names are two or three
> syllables, and it's easy for two names to collide.

Hmm, now that you mention it, we *do* use full names for disambiguation
in situations that call for it (e.g., asking to speak with a particular
person on the phone, esp. if multiple people with the same given names
may be present).


> In American culture, calling a child by their full name -- including
> the "middle name" -- is used to signal that they are in trouble for
> something and should pay attention.

I believe this is common to British culture too.


> We often consider use of the middle name crucial there, as it is
> rarely used in normal circumstances (even a legally binding signature
> doesn't require it), and you can even call someone out using first
> name + middle name, leaving off the surname.  There are lots of jokes
> about how you can tell how much trouble you're in by how much of your
> name your parents use.

Yep!


> > With your elders, you greet by title. E.g. I greet my mother-in-law
> > as "mama", even though she's not my biological mother -- it's
> > considered more intimate than calling her "yue4mu3". This is of
> > course pretty informal; with less familiar family members or on
> > formal family events you're technically supposed to address them by
> > their exact relationship to you -- e.g., lio4yi2zhang4 (husband of
> > 6th aunt on mother's side).  Fortunately, my family doesn't practice
> > that (seriously, who can keep track of all those convoluted family
> > relations?!). It can get very political sometimes in traditional
> > families that continue that practice -- failure to address someone
> > by their exact relationship to you is taken either as a sign of
> > boorishness or as a personal insult, and can escalate into family
> > disputes.
> >
> 
> Interesting.  I don't think I have ever met any Chinese that were that
> strict about it.  Of course, there are a couple factors that might
> mitigate that: 1) I interact mostly with city-dwelling mainlanders,
> who may have eschewed many of these traditional attitudes, and 2)
> being a foreigner, I get a pass on a lot of cultural faux pas.

I have been mostly spared of these petty attitudes, though many of my
cousins have horror stories to tell about being humiliated for not
remembering what to call a certain relative, being made fun of for using
the wrong term, etc., of family members being ostracized, etc..


> > Interestingly enough, no matter how close you are to your elders,
> > you can never call them by name; it's considered quite rude (e.g. I
> > can never call my mother-in-law by name, no matter how close we
> > are). And definitely *never* call your elders by their pet names,
> > that starts family feuds. :)
> >
> 
> 
> That's very interesting.  Many cultures specifically use diminuitives
> or pet names for grand parents.  In Anglophone culture, at least from
> my own experience, each family will adopt a different set of titles
> for each pair of grandparents, often quite cutesy and informal.

Gah, I think I made a fool of myself by poor choice of words... what I
meant to say, was that an older family member often has a nickname (like
my aunt's "ah hui") reserved for the use of their peers and elders. The
younger generation are not permitted to use those names, though we
certainly do have affectionate terms for them (in Hokkien, we say "ah
kong"/"ah mah" for granddad and grandma). My aunt's kids, for example,
call her "mami" (mummy), and her grandkids call her "ah mah", but they
never call her "ah hui" -- only her siblings and parents can.


> For me, my paternal granparents were Mamaw and Papaw, and my maternal
> grandparents were Mawmaw and Dada (for clarification, Mamaw is
> pronounced /ˈmæmɔ/ and Mawmaw is /ˈmɔmɔ/).  Of course, we lack the
> more specific kinship terms Chinese has.  It works out quite well for
> my half-Taiwanese neice: To her, her American parents are Grammy and
> Granddad (the same terms adopted by their other grandchildren), while
> her Taiwanese grandparents use Chinese terms (I know that the
> grandmother is 姥姥 lao2lao2 -- though my sister-in-law seems to
> pronounce it as lao3lao1, though child-talk style singsong might be
> screwing with me,

That's not child-talk singsong; it's tone sandhi in action. :) A more
liberal form of tone sandhi than the usual, granted, but this *is*
informal speech we're talking about. For example, I address my
mother-in-law as ma3ma1 (sometimes even ma3ma2) even though the
"correct" pronunciation is ma1ma1. My conjecture is that there's some
kind of tone sandhi that changed ma1ma1 > ma3ma1, and then the second
tone is corrupted into tone 2 for prosodic reasons.


> but I'm not sure what they call the grandfather.  I want to say that
> they've decided to call him 爷爷 ye4ye4 despite his being the maternal
> grandfather.)
[...]

Yeah, in spite of what the traditionalists would have us believe, many
of these kinship terms are actually more fluid than they're made out to
be. A lot of it comes from "historical accident" -- you learnt it one
way when you're a child, and it stuck, not realizing that when you
learned it, the adults themselves were actually unsure what the correct
term was, so they taught you the wrong term (or you were imitating
another child who was using a different term due to different kinship).
But once learned, it sticks in spite of being "incorrect".


T

-- 
Give a man a fish, and he eats once. Teach a man to fish, and he will sit forever.

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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
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September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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