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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 1

CONLANG June 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:18:08 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

2013/6/5 JŲrg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Wednesday 05 June 2013 01:26:09 Leonardo Castro wrote:
>
>> 2013/6/4 Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>:
>> > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>> >> Can a conlang be classified into the conventional natlang families?
>> >
>> > There's been some discussion of this here or on AUXLANG in the past.
>> > The consensus seems to be that "Indo-European" is a *genetic* term,
>> > and only languages *descended* from proto-IE are Indo-European in the
>> > strict sense.  Conlangs, however much vocabulary they borrow from a
>> > given natlang or group of natlangs, aren't descended from it in the
>> > way natural daughter languages are.
>
> Yes.  It was here, some time last year.  "Indo-European" is
> defined by descent from a common ancestor through an unbroken
> continuity of speakers.

Don't Modern Hebrew and Sanskrit pose a problem to this definition?

> That way, conlangs can never be
> Indo-European.  With diachronic conlangs such as Brithenig,
> which have a *fictional* diachronic development, one can at
> least say that they are *fictional* Indo-European languages,
> the same way, say, Sherlock Holmes is a fictional human being,
> but the qualification _fictional_ must never be omitted
> (except in *intrafictional* texts: if someone was to write
> _The Languages of Kemr_ from an Ill Bethisad-internal vantage
> point, that text would call Brithenig a "Romance language").
>
> But languages such as Esperanto that draw their vocabulary
> from various Indo-European languages are not even fictional
> IE languages.  There is nothing "fictional" about Esperanto.
>
> Not even pidgins and creole languages based on IE languages
> are classified as Indo-European by mainstream linguists!
>
>> Interesting! I have heard some people arguing that families are
>> defined by syntax solely, but I think the idea of genetic term is
>> better.
>
> The notion of defining families "by syntax solely" is now
> considered fallacious.  That is not a language *family* but
> a language *type*.  The idea of defining Indo-European by
> syntactic features dates back to the late, unlamented
> Nikolai Marr and has always been considered pseudoscience
> in the free world.  (Marr entertained a pseudo-Marxist
> stadial theory.  According to that theory, primitive
> classless societies spoke agglutinating ergative languages,
> of which examples still survive in Basque and in Caucasian
> languages.  The development of a class society would usher
> in a shift to fusional accusative language structures, and
> it was this what according to Marr defined Indo-European.
> Of course, this is utter bullshit, but it was the state
> doctrine in linguistics in the USSR from ca. 1930 to 1950,
> and western historical linguistics was forbidden.)
>
>> I remember Richard Dawkins saying something similar while
>> discussing alternative proposals of Biological Taxonomy...
>
> I don't know what Dawkins has said, but creationists define
> biological taxonomy in such ways, and I can guess how
> vitriolically Dawkins rejects this.
>
>> BTW, my new conlang have a lot of false cognates with natlangs:
>> "mont-" for "mount", "kiel-" for "language" (Finnish), "kamp" for
>> "field" and "huas-" for "house" (Quechua or English)...
>>
>> But all of them are just coincidences... ;-) Isn't there a language in
>> a distant planet that is exactly the same as English by pure
>> coincidence?
>
> Very unlikely, but not *impossible*.
>
>> > And just judging by resemblance to Indo-European languages, Esperanto
>> > is IE in vocabulary, and to a large extent in syntax, but arguably not
>> > so much in morphology.
>
> Yes.  The morphology of Esperanto has little in common with
> Indo-European.  It is agglutinating without even the slightest
> trace of ablaut, and only a few morphemes are vaguely similar
> to their IE counterparts.  (In this regard, Esperanto is more
> like Uralic or Etruscan.)
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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