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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 1

CONLANG June 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: nominal (or adjectival) predicates: how do you form them?

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Jun 2013 19:20:49 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines)

On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 6:45 PM, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 04:15:41PM -0500, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
> > i am interested in how your conlangs that put case endings on nouns make
> > nominal predicates (especially if you have a zero-copula!).
> >
> > so, like, if you have to say "the X is a Y," "she is Z," do you have a
> > special way of doing that? even if your way is just to put the same case
> > ending on X and Y, and/or insert a word for "is," i'd still like to hear
> > about it, with examples.
>
> Tatari Faran has no copula. At all. Before I present the examples, I
> should explain that in TF, NP's have the structure:
>
>         noun [modifiers] case_marker
>
> IOW, nouns cannot stand alone; they are required to be paired with a
> case marker. However, interestingly enough, in nominal predicates the
> predicating noun *does* stand alone! Here are some examples:
>
> 1)      samat sa.
>         man   CASE2:MASC
>         A man.
>
> 2)      bata' sa.
>         chief CASE2:MASC
>         A chief.
>
> 3)      samat sa         bata'-0.
>         man   CASE2:MASC chief-PRED
>         The man is a chief.
>
> 4)      bata' sa         samat-0.
>         chief CASE2:MASC man-PRED
>         The chief is a man.
>
> This is strikingly similar to your protolang's omission of case ending
> in nominal predicates!
>

whoa!! i was going to say, this sounds extremely familiar.


>
> However, the story doesn't end here. Sentences (3) and (4) above, while
> grammatically valid, feel like they "lack" something... because in TF,
> indicative clauses are usually strengthened by words called "finalizers"
> -- words synonymous with the main verb / predicative adjective that are
> tacked onto the end of a sentence to re-emphasize its indicative
> quality. These finalizers are omitted from questions and irrealis /
> subjunctive clauses, as an overt gesture of non-finality. So the usual
> pattern for a simple TF clause is:
>
>         NP verb FIN
>
> or:
>
>         NP adjective FIN
>
> However, (3) and (4) above have the structure:
>
>         NP noun
>
> -- they are missing the finalizer usually heard at the end of an
> indicative clause.


so, on its own, could you use (3) to mean "[if] the man were a chief," or
something (irrealis)? i assume you'd need an "if" word in there somewhere.

this reminds me a bit of Middle Egyptian, which tends only to employ the
copula *jw* with adverbial predicates (nominal predicates are another
story) when there is somehow a firm assertion:

*jw r` m pt
*
COP sun in sky
"the sun is in the sky"
"the sun was in the sky"
"the sun will be in the sky"

*r` m pt
*
sun in sky

"when the sun is in the sky..."
"were the sun in the sky..."

though i don't think this is a super rigid distinction. and i realize that
your finalizing element is not a copula.


> When it comes to questions with nominal predicates, TF has several modes
> of expression. I won't use asking for names as example, because TF uses
> an atypical idiom there, but let's say we take the previous examples
> "the man is a chief" and turn that into questions of various sorts:
>
> 6)      sii  so         samat sa?
>         what CASE2:NEUT man   CASE2:MASC
>         Who is the man?  I.e., what is his occupation?
>         (3) or (3b) would be a typical answer.
>
> (The neuter gender is used with _sii_ here as a generic epicene.
> Strictly speaking, it should be _sii sa_ with the masculine case marker,
> since the referent is masculine, but it appears that this stricter usage
> is starting to be displaced by the more generic neuter _sii so_.)
>
> 7)      samat sa         bata' ta?
>         man   CASE2:MASC chief Q
>         Is the man a chief? (One may answer _ai_ "yes" or _bai_ "no", or
>         use (3b) which conveniently has _ai_ embedded at the end!)
>
>
ok, i have a similar construction, the case-endingless nominal predicate
with an interrogative particle:

āχ-æn       u=turæxæʔs-Ø ?
man-NOM Q=chieftain-PRED ?

using '=' to show a clitic.

matt

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