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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 4

CONLANG June 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: nominal (or adjectival) predicates: how do you form them?

From:

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:25:53 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

On 27 June 2013 23:43, James Kane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Wow that's very interesting that our conlangs are so similar!


Yes, so similar and yet so different :P .


> I think the only difference is that I don't have a proper verb 'to be';
> instead I'm making do with the third person pronoun which I stole from
> Hebrew. I was definitely planning on blurring the lines between adjective
> and noun but I'm not sure to what extent yet: _ba liksia_ might mean honour
> or honourable one.
>
> If the first then there really will be no difference between a noun and an
> adjective and conversely any noun might become an adjective - _ba liksia
> kksums_ would be something like 'shamanistic honour' where _ba kksums
> liksia_ is 'honourable shaman'.
>
>
That's basically how Moten works: _ka|se ufan_: "great man", _ufan ka|se_:
"manly greatness" (OK, I might have been watching Tengen Toppa Gurren
Lagann too much lately :P).


> If the second then they aren't quite the same and behave more like
> adjectives in German or French 'les petits' or 'les beaux' where the actual
> head noun is omitted. This leaves room for more derivational processes
> which at the moment are very sparse.
>
>
That's indeed how French and other Romance languages behave. Interestingly,
Basque behaves the same way: _txikia_: "the bird", _txiki txoria_: "the
small bird", _txoria_: "the small one". Despite Basque's enormous influence
on Moten I chose not to have a separate adjective class in Moten, So in
Moten we have: _linean_: "the bird", _linan pleg_: "the small bird",
_pleg_: "the smallness".
To signify "the small one", the most generic (and most common) way is to
use a nominalised relative clause: _plegedun iges_: "the one that has the
smallness". This may look like a roundabout way to render it, but it's not
without (indirect) natlang precedent: in Basque (again :) ), the form
_dena_ basically means "everything, everyone, all", and is used as such.
However, it is actually the verb _izan_: "to be" in the third person
present modifier form (used to form relative clauses) _den_, then
nominalised with the article _-a_ (all relative clauses in Basque can be
nominalised that way). So _dena_ literally means "the one that is" (_izan_
can have an existential meaning in Basque).
So the idea of using a nominalised relative clause to get something that
looks pronominal is not without precedent :) .


> But I could have it mean both things and leave it up to context, or have
> one interpretation more likely in different sentence positions - or because
> Mulesuax does mark for number, the singular could be interpreted as
> 'honour' and the plural as 'honourable ones', as I feel the second thingy
> is more likely to show up in the plural whereas the first one is abstract
> and so necessarily singular.
>
>
A third option is to say that all adjectives are actually nouns, but that
these nouns mean "X one". Then you just need to explain that what you have
isn't adjectives completing nouns, but nouns in apposition. That's what the
writer Frédéric Werst does in his conlang Wardwesân. The interesting result
of this option is that word order becomes irrelevant: if your _liksia_ is
actually a noun meaning "honourable one", both _ba liksia kksums_ and _ba
kksums liksia_ mean "honourable shaman" (literally "honourable one, shaman"
or "shaman, honourable one"), and the freedom of word order allows you to
play all kinds of tricks :) . And you still have room for derivational
processes to get abstract nouns out of the adjective-like nouns.


> Anyway, slightly off topic. There was a lot of discussion about the
> predicates and why they don't act as objects. So I started rethinking my
> conlang. As it is designed as a parent language I thought that maybe I
> could do something weird in each branch, although I will definitely have at
> least one branch do it the way it does it now.
>
>
I read that discussion already (will send a reply later on that thread). I
was involved in the earlier one that is mentioned on that thread too, due
to the way Moten works :) . I personally like the idea that the Moten "to
be" verb is syntactically no different from any other transitive verb. I
tried to reduce the number of word types in Moten as much as possible, and
having the verb "to be" be a type of its own didn't sit well with me :) .


> Good on you for catching up on all these e-mails. Just be careful on the
> capitalisation thread. I hope your holiday was enjoyable!
>
>
My holiday was great, thank you :) . One of the greatest thing that
happened during that holiday is that I finished reading the 1405 pages of
the _Standard Basque: a Progressive Grammar_ book by Rudolf de Rijk. I
already knew quite a bit about Basque, but that book filled all the holes
in my knowledge, and made me discover even more interesting features of
Basque I was unaware of (like _dena_ as I described above). I just *might*
refer to Basque a lot in the next months :P .
I already read the capitalisation thread, and deleted it. Too much vitriol
for me to do anything with it :P.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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