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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 4

CONLANG June 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: writing (almost) entirely in lower-case letters

From:

Aodhán Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Jun 2013 23:06:37 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

And a further question ( :P ) - for people with IE-esque conlangs where 
case morphology is largely inalienable from nouns, are foreign names 
uninflectable or are they wedged somehow into the case system? (cf Latin 
vs. Ancient Greek - Latin tries to jam them in (hence 'Confucius', 
'Gustavus', etc.), while Greek just leaves them alone (Ισραήλ and so on).)

On 6/25/2013 9:02 PM, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> Another question this brought to mind: in łaá siri, proper nouns are often
> discernable because they are uninflected noun roots, and if they refer to a
> person, usually occur with an honorific of some form. In others' conlangs,
> are names and proper nouns unique in some way that makes them apparent in a
> text (besides capitalization)?
> On Jun 26, 2013 9:38 AM, "Padraic Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>> From: George Corley
>>> The question is, do you keep to the conventions in order to make the
>>> readers more comfortable, or do you break them for your own satisfaction.
>>> The degree to which it impedes readability isn't that important, you
>> still
>>> have a choice, and there are reasons to make either choice. As I have
>> said
>>> before, by putting a romanization to a conlang that is not "natively"
>>> written in the Roman alphabet, you are already imposing alien conventions
>>> on it. There is therefore no reason do dismiss the graphical conventions
>> of
>>> the Roman alphabet other than aesthetic. And since there is no arguing
>>> taste, then we really should not be freaking arguing over which choice is
>>> better.
>> I agreed earlier that, yes, the mere act of writing a conlang in a
>> non-native
>> script is a form of alien imposition, and indeed it may well be one of many
>> such impositions. But on rethinking, it's really not an imposition on the
>> language itself in any way shape or form. Just because I choose to write
>> Talarian texts here in a romanisation scheme -- and really, what
>> alternative
>> do I have?? -- doesn't change anything whatsoever about the language or
>> its script. The only thing the romanisation does for a conlang is to
>> facilitate
>> discussion: it's easy for me to write in romanised conlang, it's easier for
>> you to read, it's easier for us to talk about it than if I just say "look
>> here:
>> http://bethisad.com/world/currency/currency.htm and have fun sorting out
>> all
>> the funny writing!"
>>
>>
>>> From: H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>> It's this informal feel that I wanted to capture when I decided that
>>> Tatari Faran's romanization will be all lowercase. The san faran are the
>>> easy-going type, and don't really care too much about such nitpicky
>>> details, and I thought it would be fitting to convey this in the
>>> romanization of their language.
>> And therein lies the only correct answer to the whole question of to
>> capitalise or to not capitalise a conlang's romanisation, namely, we do
>> that which we as individuals decide is best for the conlang at hand and
>> for the Purpose to which we set the transliteration scheme. You choose
>> noncapitalisation because you feel that in some way it captures the
>> informality of the speakers of the conlang. I choose noncapitalisation
>> (at times) to emulate the native script's caselessness. Others have said
>> that they choose capitalisation for familiarity sake and for ease of
>> reading.
>> All these are valid reasons for the choices we make.
>>
>>>>   If you want to really mess things up, you could remove all punctuation
>>>>   as well. THAT would affect readability for me. I think the punctuation
>>>>   is more important in this respect than capitalization, so I don't know
>>>>   why this is such a huge gripe! Convention is only convention, it
>>>>   doesn't mean it's how everything needs to be done.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Punctuation is definitely more important than capitalization.
>> And yet the ancients got along pretty well with neither. Anyone who works
>> with ancient mss stìll has to deal with pages of writing that may or may
>> not
>> be capitalised, have punctuation or even spacing between words. It didn't
>> seem to bother the ancients, and I guess one gets used to it!
>>
>>> And while capitalization is only convention, I'd argue that for
>>> *English*, it's preferable.
>> Well, for *English* (or indeed French or German etc), it's the Rules. It's
>> part
>> that set of conventions by which we all agree to sensibly communicate with
>> each other. As with any rule, it can be bent, but the more we bend these
>> rules, the harder it is to effectively communicate.
>>
>>> But when it comes to *conlangs*, I think
>>> it's needlessly nitpicky to insist on English-style capitalization. I
>>> mean, even German uses its own capitalization conventions, and it also
>>> uses the Latin script, so why the insistence on English-centric bias?
>> Indeed. This is why I first asked "what counts as traditional" way back
>> when the discussion first started. Whose rules are we supposed to use,
>> and why do we even need to follow ány real language's rules when it
>> comes to romanising a conlang?
>>
>>> Reading *any* foreign language (conlang or not) requires some initial
>>> effort to learn the writing anyway, be it romanization or native script.
>> Yes. And I think this is really why we all have chosen the former here
>> on list. Sure, we sometimes offer links to native script images and we
>> might send Christmas cards using native script, but for the most part
>> our experience of reading each others' languages is in romanisation.
>> We do it that way to reduce the amount of effort required of the
>> other person to get what we're doing.
>>
>>> One can hardly expect to fairly evaluate a conlang if one is unwilling
>>> to put the effort into learning the conventions the author chose to
>>> adopt.  Nitpicking on capitalization conventions in lieu of actually
>>> learning how the conlang works seems to me to be a case of straining out
>>> the gnat and swallowing the camel.
>> :)
>>
>> Padraic
>>
>>> T

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