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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 4

CONLANG June 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: the origin of /N/ (was: the symmetry of sound change)

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 24 Jun 2013 10:19:21 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (63 lines)

2013/6/24 Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>:
> Sometimes I have the impression that the leg of the /ɲ/ was displaced
> in Brazilian "nh" (corresponding to Spanish "ñ"), turning /ɲ/ into /ŋ/
> (or /J/ into /N/ in SAMPA).
>
> In my own dialect, there's no /ɲ/

<ERRATUM>

, but some thing that I don't know if

(In fact, I was thinking in "some one", as opposed to "someone".)

> it's /~j/, /ŋ/ or either of them depending on environment. I'm almost
> sure that my "nh" is closer to /ŋ/ when it's in initial position ("Nhá
> Chica", "nheengatu", etc.) or when it's preceded by /~i/ or /~e/
> ("galinha", "lenha", etc.), and closer to /~j/ otherwise ("unha",
> "Bolonha", etc.).
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> 2013/6/23 Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>:
>> On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> No!  Certainly not a *lot* weirder.  The odds are slightly pretty much
>>> exactly fifty-fifty that a random language will have it, in WALS.  However,
>>> in three out of eight languages that have it, it can't appear in absolute
>>> initial position (and perhaps other initial positions).
>>>   http://wals.info/feature/9A
>>>
>>
>> fair enough. my apologies for not gathering the relevant statistics before
>> throwing out my usual blanket statements. nevertheless my main point was
>> that phonologies with /m/ and /n/ and no /N/ (with or without [N]) are all
>> over the place.
>>
>>
>>> That's the prevailing one, yeah, but there are other sources of [N] (and
>>> thus of /N/).  At times it seems to be the mòst preferred nasal in coda:
>>> witness e.g. Caribbean dialects of Spanish, and many Chinese varieties,
>>> shifting all coda nasals to [N] -- in some Spanishes even internally before
>>> heterorganic stops!  In Nyole, a Bantu language, /N/ comes from *p,
>>> seemingly by rhinoglottophilia from an intermediate [h].  In Samoyedic, [N]
>>> was epenthesised before initial vowels.  And of course even if there is
>>> [Ng] it doesn't have to come from /ng/; prenasal series can come from
>>> elsewhere (I seem to remember SE Asian examples of spontaneous
>>> prenasalisation of voiced stops).
>>>
>>
>> another one i thought of is the Hindi word for 'lion' which (i don't know
>> Hindi) sounds to me like [sIN] but the wikipedia-supplied phonology
>> suggests it could also be [sINg] = /sIng/, since /N/ is not listed among
>> the Hindi consonant phonemes. either way, Sanskrit *siṃha* with the usual
>> place-assimilation of the anusvara 'm' thing, since Sanskrit /h/ somehow
>> counts as a velar according to the traditional grammarian(s). if anyone can
>> explain that to me, that'd be great.
>>
>> matt

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