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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 4

CONLANG June 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: writing (almost) entirely in lower-case letters

From:

Joseph Rocca <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:26:10 +0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (179 lines)

Oh, I've just realised that this is definitely the wrong place to post
this... Still trying to work out how this mail list thing works. Sorry!


On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Joseph Rocca <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Okay, I now realised I'm way out of my league here, so please shut me down
> if this is not the place for me - I'm building an online translator maker (
> lingojam.com) and I was wondering whether the colang community would be
> interested in something like this? At the moment I feel like it's a little
> primitive for colang needs, but I'm super keen to add in anything that
> people want.
>
> Hopefully a few of you find it useful (or would do if it had a couple more
> features) - would love to hear your thoughts :)
>
> Cheers,
> Joe
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Aodhán Aannestad <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> And a further question ( :P ) - for people with IE-esque conlangs where
>> case morphology is largely inalienable from nouns, are foreign names
>> uninflectable or are they wedged somehow into the case system? (cf Latin
>> vs. Ancient Greek - Latin tries to jam them in (hence 'Confucius',
>> 'Gustavus', etc.), while Greek just leaves them alone (Ισραήλ and so on).)
>>
>>
>> On 6/25/2013 9:02 PM, Zach Wellstood wrote:
>>
>>> Another question this brought to mind: in łaá siri, proper nouns are
>>> often
>>> discernable because they are uninflected noun roots, and if they refer
>>> to a
>>> person, usually occur with an honorific of some form. In others'
>>> conlangs,
>>> are names and proper nouns unique in some way that makes them apparent
>>> in a
>>> text (besides capitalization)?
>>> On Jun 26, 2013 9:38 AM, "Padraic Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  From: George Corley
>>>>> The question is, do you keep to the conventions in order to make the
>>>>> readers more comfortable, or do you break them for your own
>>>>> satisfaction.
>>>>> The degree to which it impedes readability isn't that important, you
>>>>>
>>>> still
>>>>
>>>>> have a choice, and there are reasons to make either choice. As I have
>>>>>
>>>> said
>>>>
>>>>> before, by putting a romanization to a conlang that is not "natively"
>>>>> written in the Roman alphabet, you are already imposing alien
>>>>> conventions
>>>>> on it. There is therefore no reason do dismiss the graphical
>>>>> conventions
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> the Roman alphabet other than aesthetic. And since there is no arguing
>>>>> taste, then we really should not be freaking arguing over which choice
>>>>> is
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>> I agreed earlier that, yes, the mere act of writing a conlang in a
>>>> non-native
>>>> script is a form of alien imposition, and indeed it may well be one of
>>>> many
>>>> such impositions. But on rethinking, it's really not an imposition on
>>>> the
>>>> language itself in any way shape or form. Just because I choose to write
>>>> Talarian texts here in a romanisation scheme -- and really, what
>>>> alternative
>>>> do I have?? -- doesn't change anything whatsoever about the language or
>>>> its script. The only thing the romanisation does for a conlang is to
>>>> facilitate
>>>> discussion: it's easy for me to write in romanised conlang, it's easier
>>>> for
>>>> you to read, it's easier for us to talk about it than if I just say
>>>> "look
>>>> here:
>>>> http://bethisad.com/world/**currency/currency.htm<http://bethisad.com/world/currency/currency.htm>and have fun sorting out
>>>> all
>>>> the funny writing!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  From: H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's this informal feel that I wanted to capture when I decided that
>>>>> Tatari Faran's romanization will be all lowercase. The san faran are
>>>>> the
>>>>> easy-going type, and don't really care too much about such nitpicky
>>>>> details, and I thought it would be fitting to convey this in the
>>>>> romanization of their language.
>>>>>
>>>> And therein lies the only correct answer to the whole question of to
>>>> capitalise or to not capitalise a conlang's romanisation, namely, we do
>>>> that which we as individuals decide is best for the conlang at hand and
>>>> for the Purpose to which we set the transliteration scheme. You choose
>>>> noncapitalisation because you feel that in some way it captures the
>>>> informality of the speakers of the conlang. I choose noncapitalisation
>>>> (at times) to emulate the native script's caselessness. Others have said
>>>> that they choose capitalisation for familiarity sake and for ease of
>>>> reading.
>>>> All these are valid reasons for the choices we make.
>>>>
>>>>    If you want to really mess things up, you could remove all
>>>>>> punctuation
>>>>>>   as well. THAT would affect readability for me. I think the
>>>>>> punctuation
>>>>>>   is more important in this respect than capitalization, so I don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>>   why this is such a huge gripe! Convention is only convention, it
>>>>>>   doesn't mean it's how everything needs to be done.
>>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> Punctuation is definitely more important than capitalization.
>>>>>
>>>> And yet the ancients got along pretty well with neither. Anyone who
>>>> works
>>>> with ancient mss stìll has to deal with pages of writing that may or may
>>>> not
>>>> be capitalised, have punctuation or even spacing between words. It
>>>> didn't
>>>> seem to bother the ancients, and I guess one gets used to it!
>>>>
>>>>  And while capitalization is only convention, I'd argue that for
>>>>> *English*, it's preferable.
>>>>>
>>>> Well, for *English* (or indeed French or German etc), it's the Rules.
>>>> It's
>>>> part
>>>> that set of conventions by which we all agree to sensibly communicate
>>>> with
>>>> each other. As with any rule, it can be bent, but the more we bend these
>>>> rules, the harder it is to effectively communicate.
>>>>
>>>>  But when it comes to *conlangs*, I think
>>>>> it's needlessly nitpicky to insist on English-style capitalization. I
>>>>> mean, even German uses its own capitalization conventions, and it also
>>>>> uses the Latin script, so why the insistence on English-centric bias?
>>>>>
>>>> Indeed. This is why I first asked "what counts as traditional" way back
>>>> when the discussion first started. Whose rules are we supposed to use,
>>>> and why do we even need to follow ány real language's rules when it
>>>> comes to romanising a conlang?
>>>>
>>>>  Reading *any* foreign language (conlang or not) requires some initial
>>>>> effort to learn the writing anyway, be it romanization or native
>>>>> script.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes. And I think this is really why we all have chosen the former here
>>>> on list. Sure, we sometimes offer links to native script images and we
>>>> might send Christmas cards using native script, but for the most part
>>>> our experience of reading each others' languages is in romanisation.
>>>> We do it that way to reduce the amount of effort required of the
>>>> other person to get what we're doing.
>>>>
>>>>  One can hardly expect to fairly evaluate a conlang if one is unwilling
>>>>> to put the effort into learning the conventions the author chose to
>>>>> adopt.  Nitpicking on capitalization conventions in lieu of actually
>>>>> learning how the conlang works seems to me to be a case of straining
>>>>> out
>>>>> the gnat and swallowing the camel.
>>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Padraic
>>>>
>>>>  T
>>>>>
>>>>
>

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