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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 5

CONLANG June 2013, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Hello, and language sketch.

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 30 Jun 2013 01:57:55 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 23:28:43 -0500, Aodhán Aannestad <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Hello! I'm a longtime lurker, finally deciding to get involved a little.
>Some of you may have met me at the last LCC, I'm with UT Austin's
>conlang club and I drove some people around. 

'Twas good to meet / bum rides off you there.  

>Anyway, on to the language. It doesn't have a name yet, sadly - I'm
>using it for a protolang for a large project, and since said large
>project has yet to really begin, it's not really in a state where I can
>really name anything. (I suppose I could come up with an endonym for it
>- it'd be something like 'Lesuy' (/lesuj/, /person-speak/) or something,
>though that doesn't sound that great to my ears.)

Eh, I'm in no rush to give my projects endonyms; I give them codenames or descriptive English names until then.  And anyway, endonyms are often non-transparently formed, especially in areas with lots of cross-cultural interaction, in deriving from place names or tribal names or calqued or borrowed exonyms or whatnot; so if you don't like /lesuj/ it's hardly forced on you.  

>Affixes have no
>shape target - anything from V to a maximal syllable is in theory
>permitted. 

This is kinda odd, unless the affixing is all really new.  (I suppose that what I'm calling "really new" could actually èxternally be "well, I have to start sòmewhere with a pre*-proto-language to have something to run diachronics on").  

What's the realisation of stress?  If unstressed syllables are weakerly articulated in whatever way, then weaker syllables could start to lose some of the complexity of their syllable structure (especially monophthongisation, but also cluster simplification &c), which could help set up a more canonical affix shape down the line, and as a bonus potentially yield fun morphophonology.

>any sequences of two identical vowels
>are shrunk into one (e.g. /emnira/, 'girl', from /emni/ 'woman' + /ira/
>'child'). /i/ and /u/ become glides when adjacent to other vowels (e.g.
>/dorayra/ 'boy', from /dora /'man' + /ira/). 

To ask after pedantic completeness: what happens when two different nonhigh vowels meet?  When an /i/ and a /u/ meet, which one glides?

>Word order is VSO when there's no
>overt complementiser, and SOV when there is (so /fikol le/ 'the man has
>gone', but /le/ /fikolti/ 'the fact that the man has gone').

The /-ti/ is the overt complementiser in there?

>Verbs don't care about person, number, or tense, but there are 5 or 7
>aspect markers (perfective/stative (null-marked), progressive, perfect,
>expective, intentive(?), and hortative and imperative if you count them
>- they're mutually exclusive with aspect). 

Does whether the null-marked aspect is perfective or stative depend on like Aktionsart or some kind of inherent aspect of the verb, or is there something weirder going on here?  And then, if there are verb classes, are there any interesting semantic properties of the marked aspects?  e.g. often (afaik) inherently stative verbs automatically become inceptives or whatnot when used in a (marked) perfective.

>The only obligatory marking on nouns is case, but there's a number of
>other potential affixes. Number is especially complex - 

Does the below imply that plain old number marking of the singular vs. plural sort, lacking specificity in the quantity and lacking a larger quantity of which it's a part, is not found?

>specific
>quantities are marked directly on the noun (so/lemofyethon/ 'twenty
>people', it's base-8 so that breaks down as /le-mo-fye-thon/
>'person-8-2-4' for (2*8)+4 people), and there are also suffixes for
>'more than half (of a group)', 'less than half (of a group)', 

Really so specifically 'more / less than half', as opposed to 'relatively many (of a group)', 'relatively few (of a group)'?  That precision seems unlikely to me.

>'part (of
>a unit)', and 'all (of a unit)'. These can be augmented by 'all' or
>'none', and further by 'the next' or 'the previous' (allowing for very
>long sequences such as /lemofyethondawfag /'none of the last twenty
>people'). 

Very long single words arising from numbers seem to me to be one of those things which conlangers are prone to do but natlangs aren't.  I don't know any direct data.  But one natlang that hàs done this for two digit numbers is Hindi, and the result is that in the modern form all kinds of sandhi goes on and the system is kinda tricky to learn.  
  https://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Hindi/Numbers
But not many languages have a Hindi-type system.  And effects of analogy notwithstanding, my feeling is that this probably means that systems of two-digit numbers mostly don't behave like single words cross-linguistically.  

Information density is probably not a very good way to get at questions of synchronic wordhood, but it is at least true that grammaticalisation, including univerbation, is characteristic of regions of relatively lower information density, whereas spelling out the digits of a long number in which precision is important intrinsically has relatively high information density.  Maybe a more relevant fact is the way people reading telephone numbers and the like tend to give them structureful and nonhomogeneous prosody. 

>there's two kinds of
>genitives, possessive and categorical (for things like 'men of that
>village', 'the strength of an ox', 'a sword of bronze' and so on), both
>of which form verbs (so//'the man's cat' has to be /lenase nyawa/ with
>-/se/, not */lena nyawa/ - /lena nyawa /is grammatical, but it would be
>heard as 'the cat is the man's').

This is funny.  Leaving aside the use of the label "case", what we have here are two operations which build verbs on nouns.  
Now, ttbomk, it is a strong tendency that derivational or compounding operations tend to impose indefinite / nonspecific / nonreferential interpretations on their bases.  For example, take Mithun's hierarchy of types of noun incorporation (e.g. <www.stanford.edu/~tylers/notes/morphosyntax/Mithun_1984_notes.pdf‎>): the more straightforward types I (and II?) tend to name "unitary activities", like 'birdwatching'; "as you have a unitary activity, the N loses its salience (Mithun 1984: 849)"; the way the other types III and IV develop on this is by running with this nonsalience.  
On the other hand, possessives at least are most prototypically used with completely definite referential nouns, like SAP pronouns and proper names and stuff; this is totally the opposite of what derivational etc. operations tend to do.  Funny.  (For the categorical, it doesn't seem so bad to me.)

Of course, if you were to have these verbs, their relativised uses for usual noun-modifying-a-noun relations is perfectly natural.

Ah, hm, maybe this isn't a problem if these "cases" are regarded as _clitic_ verbs, which just can't occur phonologically free and have to lean on a noun to their left for whatever reason.  The copular /-si/ might then permit the same analysis.  I suppose that if you don't go with this cliticky kind of thing, the same nonspecificity motivations might motivate a language like this to keep /-si/ for membership in a class ('Gilbert is a farmer') and use a different mechanism for identity ('the morning star is the evening star', 'the murderer is the butler').  

>Locative cases are the following: inessive and exessive (both used for
>general locatives, inessive for being within the boundaries of a place,
>exessive for being near but outside the boundaries of a place or
>object), superessive and subessive, proessive ('in front of') and
>postessive ('behind'), comitative, allative (also used as a dative) and
>ablative (also used as the agent of causatives and volitives), illative
>and ellative, superlative ('going over') and sublative ('going under'),
>circumlative/circumessive, and adspective ('facing') and abspective
>('facing away from').

Hm, no "general" locative then.  That isn't itself weird, but what would be weird is if the system were actually as tidy as presented here; for whatever reason, systems of oblique cases and adpositions seem to be very fertile grounds for subregularities and not-very-productive metaphors and other slightly odd usages to become collocatively fixed.

What happens in your language with metaphorical uses of the locative cases -- how do the speakers apply these distinctions of whether things are inessively or exessively etc. "in" a condition or a situation, or a time, or a language, or so forth?  

>Non-locative cases are benefactive (also used for the experiencer with a
>number of perception verbs - 'see' for example has a BEN subject when
>you would expect ERG, and giving it an ERG subject changes the meaning
>to 'look at'), 

Good.

>instrumental, causative, and comparative.

Comparative for standards of comparison, or something wackier?  And what does causative case do?

>Copular constructions are formed by affixing the copular verbaliser
>/-si/ to nouns - /dorasi le/ 'the person is a man'. This allows for a
>somewhat idiosyncratic way to express motion - while it's perfectly
>grammatical to say /fyokh ne sakhtasoy /(/go-PROG 1-ABS river-ALL,
>/literally 'I am going to the river'), it's much more native-sounding to
>say /sakhtasoysi ne/ (/river-ALL-COP 1-ABS, /literally 'I am to the river').

I wonder what the pragmatic effects of using the 'go' verb are, then.  (Hm, maybe it foregrounds manner, and the verb you've glossed 'go' is instead more like 'walk'?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb_framing)

>There are also two generic verbs, meaning something like 'to do (it)'
>and 'to go (there)'. They can also be used as nominalisers (somewhat
>ironically :P), meaning 'method' and 'process', respectively.

Neat, though I'm not entìrely sure what the difference between 'method' and 'process' to you is.  Zero-derivation of verbs to nouns isn't a thing that happens in general, then, I take it?

>I've got a few ideas on where to go with it from here, but
>if anyone has any ideas I'd be happy to hear them.

Well, what are your ideas?  Anyway, I find the brainstorming easier if you give us a bit of text to chew on, so we can see what kind of structures are asking for reduction or reinterpretation of some sort.  (The interlinearised sentences in your next message are a good start!  I'll have to read them later than right now, though, I'm already up too long.)

Alex, row row rowing

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May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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