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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  July 2013, Week 2

CONLANG July 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Unusual Tenses

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 13 Jul 2013 15:06:31 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (147 lines)

> From: R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

> 
>
>On 13/07/2013 12:14, Padraic Brown wrote:
>>> From: neo gu
>
>I was beginning to think, from the lack of response, that i
>was the only one baffled by this.  But it seems Padraic is
>also
>
>>> T he current version (Jul05) marks TAM using suffixes.
>>> First comes the aspect (stative or aoristic,
>>> progressive, habitual, perfect, and prospective), then
>>> the mood (imperative, subjunctive, and indicative plus
>>> non-finite forms).
>
>OK - so the A and M parts of TAM are being shown separately.
>  So obviously "tense" is not being used to refer to the
>traditional 'tenses' set out in grammar book, e.g. the six
>indicative & four subjunctive tenses of Latin.
>
>So I assumed "tense" was being used in the strict linguistic
>sense of "[t]he grammatical category which correlates most
>directly with distinctions in time" [Trask].  In which case
>Latin has only three: past, present, future.  But ...


And English, two: past and nonpast. That's how I understood the T
part of TAM anyway.


>
>>> If the mood is indicative, the tense follows. There
>>> are 5 suffixes in that slot:
>>>
>>> AT -- absolute time ("now") DT -- definite time
>>> ("then")
>>
>> A question on terminology: I've never heard of these
>> terms before, so don't know if they're Real Linguistics
>> Terms or not;
>> but intuitively speaking, the names themselves seem to
>> refer to the same extent of Time. In other words, Now is
>> absolute because of its presence, its nuncquity, its
>> definiteness -- there can be no other now than Now! While
>> Then would seem to refer to any other possible, less
>> absolutely defined and more cuandocunquatious time.
>
>'cuandocunquatious' is a mix of Spanish & Latin with an
>anglicized termination


Nuts! And I was looking ríght at A&G to make sure I was spelling
it right. :/ At least I spelled nuncquity right! ;)))


>> It seems that the dichotomy is between a well defined NOW
>> and an ill defined ELSEWHEN,
>
>Yep - that's what I understand.  Two-way contrasts between
>past and non-past are not uncommon (e.g. ancient Greek and
>modern English).  Less common is a two-way contrast of
>future and non-future (e.h.Hua language of New Guinea).  But
>I've not come across a present and non-present contrast
>which is what we seem to have here.  Tho it s further
>complicated by other so-ca;led 'tense' suffixes.


I like the idea of present / nonpresent contrast; I think I've considered
just this contrast for some project or other. Though I think a past / 

future contrast (with no present tense at all) might be interesting as well.
The T part of TAM would simply be left unmarked; aspect and mood
would shoulder the load alone.


>>> QT -- question time (used in "when" questions)
>
>Yes, this I also find confusing.  What is 'Question time',
>apart from a program on TV?  


Oddly enough, this was my first reaction as well! (How I wish we could
inflict our imperious leader with the same -- but that is an entirely different
matter of discussion!)


>> How do these work? You tantalise by defining, but fail to
>> show us the goods!
>
>Quite so.  Tho there are, to be fair, a few examples.
>However, it was not clear to me how this worked.


Sure -- but the examples were AT and DT, except for one QT!


>On 12/07/2013 22:28, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>> In my conlang that is under construction, all these
>> suffixes' combinations will be possible by means of
>> preffixes, but there will be no right order for them to
>> appear and it will be possible to use multiple aspects,
>> multiple moods and even multiple tenses in the same
>> verb.
>
>...and multiple voices?  Just kidding
>
>i can understand multiple aspects; after all both English
>and Portuguese may combine perfect and progressive aspect, e.g.
>I have been working
>Tenho estado trabalhando
>
>Bulgarian has forms that combine perfect and imperfective
>and, I believe, other combinations are found.
>
>I can understand multiple tenses, in the strict sense of
>'time', if we have relative time.  But I don't see how
>multiple moods would work.


Well, WP says that Welsh has an "interrogatory mood" -- perhaps this
mood could be used in conjunction with the indicative or conditional
(e.g.) to show the questioner's perspective on the matter. That is, as an
evidential of sorts. INT + INDIC = straight fact finding question ("Did
John run in the race (or not)?); INT + SUBJ = disbelief regarding data
(*Jòhn* ran in a ráce!? (Now pull the other one!)); INT + COND =
conditional outcome query (Would John really run in a race (if...)?)

I could see combining optative and conditional: I would wish that... or
potential and optative: I would might go...

Also "reduplicated mood markers", like double jussive "I should ought
to do this..."


>But all these interesting prefixes can appear in any order?
>Eeek! Are you trying to out-Maggel Maggel?

Nay! Say it not! Even thìnking such a thing could be attempted risks tearing
asunder the very terrycloth of the universe!!

Padraic


>Ray

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