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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 2

CONLANG July 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Null-subject language

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 8 Jul 2013 07:51:09 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

On 07/07/2013 21:19, George Corley wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 2:34 PM, R A Brown wrote:
>
>> On 07/07/2013 18:03, George Corley wrote:
[snip]
>>>> Nope, it's just the verb. "I came" would probably
>>>> be
>>> 'ego veni' (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't speak
>>> Latin).
>>>
>>
>> I shall and do.  "ego veni" is _not_ the Latin for "I
>> came." It is the Latin for "_I_ came", i.e. "I" is
>> topicalized for some reason - the usual one will be to
>> make "I" contrast with someone else.
>>
>> Just plain, unmarked "I came" or ("I have come") is
>> _veni_.
>>
>
> I was steering as close to "literal translation" as I
> could.

Yes, but as _vēnī_ means "I came" (or "I have come"), surely
a literal translation of _vēnī_ is "I came."  It certainly
isn't plain "came."

One could, I guess, argue that a _literal_ translation is
"came-I", but that seems silly to me.

If _vēnī_ means in itself "I came", it surely follows that
_ego vēnī_ means something more than just "I came" - it
does. If one wanted to be literal I guess "_I_ came" would
suffice.

>> The first person meaning is still there, but it's
>> encoded
>>>
>>> as agreement morphology on the verb.
>>>
>>> veni come.PAST.1SG

The glossing is more complicated. Although Latin is
fusional, _vēnī_ is certainly bimorphemic _vēn + ī_.

Glossing _vēn-_ is more problematic.  It is what is
traditionally known as the 'perfect stem' of the verb; the
other two stems being the 'present stem' _venī- (where the
final -ī- is shortened before certain endings), and the
'supine stem' _vent-_.

Also, of course, the final -ī of _vēnī_ is a 1st person
singular ending reserved solely for the perfect active tense
- the other 1st person endings being -m or -ō in active
forms.   But the 1st person suffixes are always clearly there.

>>
>> Yes, but it's not _agreement_ morphology. It is the
>> subject. Some languages like to express the subject as
>> a separate 'word', some as a clitic, some as an affix -
>> that's all.
>>
>
> This is not that clear-cut though. Latin _does_ have
> freestanding personal pronouns, and the person-marking
> morphology is still there. Since this morphology is
> always obligatory, but the subject may or may not be
> expressed as a pronoun (yes, with pragmatic
> implications, but still with the same basic meaning). To
> me, that suggests that it is agreement morphology that
> can agree with an empty, but recoverable, subject.

There are different ways one can argue this.  I always found
"agrees with the subject _understood_ in the verb", which we
were taught at school, a bit odd.  I suppose I have the same
problem with "agreeing with an empty, but recoverable,
subject" similarly strange.  Also, I guess, I'm influenced
by knowing the diachronic development - these personal
endings were, once upon a time, pronouns that got themselves
cliticized.

But I agree the statement "but it's not _agreement_
morphology" was somewhat dogmatic.  There are different ways
of interpreting this phenomenon.

[snip]
>>
>> IMO the term "subject-dropping" is misleading.  The
>> subject simply is not dropped - it's there for all to
>> see or hear.
>>
>
> The subject is recoverable because of redundant marking.
> That doesn't necessarily mean that the pronoun itself
> hasn't been dropped.

On this, however, I must strongly disagree. To talk of the
Latin personal endings as redundant marking seems to me a
anglocentric way of looking at things.  From my point of
view it is the _ego_ that is redundant.  Why should one have
to _recover_ something *that is already there* in _vēnī_?

When Caesar reported _vēnī, vīdī, vīcī_ there was no
ambiguity regarding the meaning.  IMHO, _ego _vēnī, ego
vīdī, ego vīcī_ contains three redundant instances of _ego_.

>
>> Real subject-dropping does occur commonly, I
>> understand, in Chines (of all varieties) and certainly
>> in some style of English, e.g.
>> "Hi, been anywhere interesting lately?"
>> "Yeah - went over to that new fun-park yesterday.
>> Fantastic place!"
>> "That so?  Must try and go this weekend."
>>
>> But Latin ain't like that.
>>
>
> Why?

Because neither "been", "went" or "must" have any subject
markers.  Indeed "been" is not even a finite verb - it's a
perfect participle!

In Latin the verbs will have a _mandatory_ personal suffix
which _marks the subject_.

> Why must the morphology on the verb -- which is
> additionally fused with tense and aspect

Suffixed to a stem or to a TAM marker. The personal endings
are clear, though the choice of --ī, -ō, -m is triggered by
the stem and TAM marker (or lack of it).

> -- be the subject itself and not agreement with an
> external subject, either explicit or pragmatically
> recoverable?

If a subject is marked, whether by separate words, or by
cltics or by affixes, it is _marked_, period.

If a language habitually marks the subject by an affix
(prefixes in the case of Bantu languages, suffixes in many
others), it seems perverse to me to talk of "subject
dropping" just because an additional separate redundant word
is not expressed.

But the subject line is "null-subject language".

To say that Latin is a null-subject language is to my mind
quite barmy.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]

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