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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Unusual Tenses

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 21 Jul 2013 05:39:56 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (129 lines)

> From: Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

>
>>>  With such a system, it's also straightforward to express tenses like
>>>  "future of the past" and "pluperfect" (past of the past)
>> 
>>  Why would you need a set of parallel-tenses (the world within another world tenses
>>  that deal with the reality of parallel hypotheticals) to talk about ordinary things that
>>  are all in the past?
> 
> "Hypotheticals" would only make sense with the "subjunctive modifier".

Huh? I thought hypotheticals were within the realm of that parallel set of verbal
morphology belonging to the "world with the world". (I stìll think that's a cool idea!)

> With a "tense modifier", only the reference time of the narrative will
> be shifted, like the following example:
> 
> Present as reference: "Yesterday I was tired, today I'm sleeping,
> tomorrow I'm going to be nice."
> Past as reference: "I had been tired the day before, I was sleeping
> that day, I was going to be nice the next day."

Okay. All of this is perfectly ordinary indicative and speaks of a series of
events that are either transpiring now (your "present as reference") or else are
transpiring before (your "past as reference"). Maybe I'm missing something,
but I don't see how a subjunctive will help here, nor how that other set of
hypothetical conjugations will help either...

> Each verb of the latter could have two prefix or one can simply begin
> the sentence with
> 
> {past-prefix} {following-text-pronoun}
> 
> and then maintain the paragraph in present tense.
> 
> Yes, I'm going to have anaphoric pronouns that refers to "the
> following text", "the preceding text", and also "the
> following/preceding sentence/event". It's not as unnatural as it
> looks; natlangs have similar ways to refer to elements of the text
> after and before, the difference is only that AFAIK they don't have
> specific words to refer to things in the text structure, but rather
> use more generic words such as demonstrative pronouns.

Sure. We do this in English as well. "That said" is a good example
of a pronominal phrase referring to what has just been said (or
written). Other latiny phrases also serve as pronominals that refer
to text in relation to what is being said now: "q.v." refers to texts
located elsewhere in a document; "vid.inf." refers to text that
follows down below. These aren't *pronouns* in the way he, she
and it are pronouns; but they serve a similar function.

Can also use straight pronouns (which, the former, the latter) to refer
to other bits of text or speech.

> In Portuguese, "este", "esse" and "aquele" can 
> refer to the last, the
> penultimate and the antipenultimate elements described. Alternatively,
> "este" refers to the following and "esse" to the preceding.

I guess we could say "which", "which previous" and "which anterior"
to accomplish the same. :)

>>  Past of the past is already old hat in Latin, the old pluperfect: "I 
> had (already) destroyed
>>  Carthage by the time most young men my age were still learning to drive 
> their fathers'
>>  chariots." We don't really have a future of the past in English, 
> but logically, the present
>>  tense covers this stretch of time (as does the future).
> 
> I think you have it in expressions like "I was going to do" or "I
> would do". See this definition of "would":

Hm. Now we're getting more into the realm of aspect, as opposed to
tense. We do indeed have these expressions, but the former (there's
your esse) expresses intention to do more than an actual future (although,
yes, the time reference **when viewed from the perspective of the speaker
at time WAS**, is in the future, the actual time reference **when viewed from
the perspective of the speaker** could be any time, past present or future).

For example, it's now 0814. If I tell you "I was going to go over to the cafe
for breakfast", I mean that up until my now speaking to you, I have had the
intention to do something that I have not yet done. This is all in the past,
even though, theoretically, the actual act of schlepping over to the cafe could
well be in some ill defined future. Obviously, as we move closer and closer to
the time of second breakfast, and then brunch and then nammetide and
eventually lunchtime, it'll all have been most assuredly and in the past!

As for the latter (there's your este), would is also an aspectual. "I would go to
the cafe..." indicates the desire to go, or the preference to go. It is often
accompanied by a but clause that ruins the party by running contrary to desire:
...but the health services closed the place down last week on account of an
infestation of cats." 

> « Used with bare infinitive to form the "anterior future", indicating
> a futurity relative to a past time. [from 9th c.]  [quotations ▲]
> 
> 1867, Anthony Trollope, Last Chronicle of Barset, ch. 28: That her
> Lily should have been won and not worn, had been, and would be, a
> trouble to her for ever.

Myeh. I don't see that as really "anterior future", though. It's all in the past. It 
certainly has echos and resonances with later pasts, but tis all water under
the bridge.

Maybe it's because we just don't have ANY actual future tense in English,
that I'm not seeing what might be obvious to you. So many verb forms in
English can indicate or hint at future events without actually directly referring
to the same.

Even our "future tenses" par excellence, "will" and "going to", don't directly
refer to the future any more than our past tense does! Will and shall merely
forshadow the future -- the desire or the obligation to do something at some
distant date. Would is perhaps a little more standoffish, backing away a little
from the stronger desires of will and the absolute necessities of shall, always
falling before a strong prohibition. Going to clearly shows the process of and
the standing ready to, but none of these come right out and declare their futurity
the way your "comaré" does! All of these actually happen in the present time! ;)
This is how I understand it, anyway.

> 2011 November 5, Phil Dawkes, “QPR 2 - 3 Man City”, BBC Sport: Toure
> would have the decisive say though, rising high to power a header past
> Kenny from Aleksandar Kolarov's cross. »
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/would
 
Padraic

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