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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Rolling your R's

From:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:00:08 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (46 lines)

From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>


(snipalot)
(not sure who,...):

> OK, now I'm *really* wondering if what I think I'm pronouncing as a flap
> is actually just a really fast [d], because it has absolutely *no*
> resemblance to the way I'm pronouncing my trills right now!
>
>
Depends. My flap cannot be anything like a fast [d], because my [d]'s are
dental and my flap is definitely alveolar, like my trill. My trill is
definitely just a repeated version of my flap. If your [d]'s are alveolar
though, then I cannot really help here :) .

RM In Engl. my /t d/ are both alveolar. When I speak Spanish, they tend to be (are supposed to be) dental. The Engl. flap in e.g. "potter", or the fast /d/ in "ladder" are still alveolar. But my Span. r-flap/-trill is definitely a little further back-- post-alveolar? Engl. "potter" and Span. "para" are nowhere near homonyms. The tongue is cupped, not bunched up as it is for Engl. /r/; I can do both the flap/trill in a whisper too.


Teoh I think:
> Interesting. I *am* finding that in order to get a trill, I need a
> rather forceful breath -- trying to trill while whispering doesn't work.
>
RM It isn't so much more breath, as a certain amount of muscular tension _in the tongue_ (I think).
(snipmore)
>
I mean [ɕ] vs. [ʃ]. I understand some languages have them as separate
phonemes. I cannot for the life of me hear the difference nor produce it!

RM The former should be retroflexed, no? Doesn't Basque distinguish those? Or am I thinking of the Basque apical /s/?
>
> I've no idea how to even begin to pronounce an epiglottal trill! (I
> didn't even know there's such a thing as an epiglottis before coming to
> this list.) It'd be interesting to learn, though. It's good conlang
> material. :)

RM Isn't that the sound we make to imitate a dog growling? Or on "Talk like a pirate Day", when you go "Arrrr matey" etc. :-))
>
>
I believe my Maggel has at least 5 phonemic rhotics, of which two are the
alveolar and the uvular trill. The alveolar flap, the uvular fricative and
the alveolar approximant complete the set. I'm wonder if I could include
the epiglottal trill, but as yourself I have no idea how to pronounce it!

RM Dravidian languages have 3 POAs for /t d r/ and maybe /l/ -- dental, alveolar, retroflexed. I've heard them demonstrated by native speakers, and the retroflexed /r/ sounds like a stop. My tin ear.....

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