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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Rolling your R's

From:

"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:15:44 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (225 lines)

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 06:58:43PM +1200, James Kane wrote:
> It seems like you might be producing a voiceless _retroflex_ trill? It
> is sort of like pushing your tongue forward from its curled position
> by a puff of air (with maybe some frication in the throat - don't
> quote me, I'm not a phonetician). Otherwise it's probably a voiceless
> alveolar or voiceless uvular trill.

Well, I doubt it's a retroflex trill, 'cos I can't curl my tongue. :)


> I've always been able to roll an alveolar trill, although I find it
> much easier to just tap/flap (I still don't know the difference
> between taps and flaps). I've had a lot of trouble with the uvular
> trill; for the first few years of learning French I think I pronounced
> it just as a voiced velar fricative that assimilated in voicing to
> surrounding consonants. Even now it comes and goes. Sometimes in
> isolation I can produce it easily, other times (like now, as I sit in
> front of my computer making weird noises) it doesn't come at all. But
> when I speak it I'm pretty sure I just get a uvular fricative.

Yeah, most of the time when I try to pronounce /xr/ I just end up making
some kind of guttural fricative, maybe [x] or [X].


> The IPA signs for voiceless trills are just the signs for normal
> trills with the voiceless diacritic: /r̊ ʀ̊/. I hope that comes
> through, it's an <r> and a small capital <R> with empty rings above.
> Can you flap? I find it easier than trilling and when I'm lazy I just
> use the flap everywhere there should be trills. The only advice for
> trilling, which you've probably heard already, is to prolong a flap.
[...]

OK, flapping is trivial for me (unless what I *think* is a flap,
isn't!), but when I try to prolong a flap I just end up saying [t:]. :)

However, maybe what I imagine is a flap really isn't, and is just a very
fast [d].


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:18:09AM +0200, BPJ wrote:
> I guess you can coarticulate a uvular and an alveolar trill/fricative
> but I'd guess that you're just pronouncing a voiceless uvular trill. A
> forcefully articulated /X/ easily becomes trilled. You should rather
> easily feel if the uvula is vibrating; it kind of bubbles in your
> throat.

Hmm. Now that you mention it, I think I may have been pronouncing
*different* trills each time. If I keep my tongue relatively low while
trying to say /xr/, if I manage to get a trill out of it, it's almost
certainly an uvular trill. It feels like gargling.

OTOH, because the /xr/ occurs in the word /ExrlU/, the
immediately-following /l/ makes me want to hold my tongue near [l], so
it's entirely possible that it's coming out as a voiceless alveolar
trill. Or perhaps it's coming out as [xr] and [xR\] on different
occasions (along with various failed attempts like [x:] or [X:]), and
I'm just confusing myself into thinking it's the same sound each time.


> Swedish velars have uvular allophones -- /k/ and /g/ around back
> vowels and /x/ anywhere -- and I rise the tip of my tung when
> pronouncing them about half of the time, perhaps with some slight
> extra friction. Even so coarticulations like [xS) XS)] and even [xp\)
> Xp\] are within the normal 'lectal range of that highly polymorphic
> Swedish phoneme the 'sj-sound'.  [xS)] even has its own symbol [x\]!

OK, I've no idea how to simultaneously pronounce [x] and [S]. That seems
really difficult. :)

OTOH, the trills I've been pronouncing have a noticeably fricative-like
quality to them. Could it be that I'm actually saying [xr)] or [XR\)]?
(Is that even possible?)


> Anyway my pronunciation ranges between velar and uvular with the
> occasional labialization, and it easily becomes a trill e.g. when I
> say [Xu\:kt_h] 'sick!' as an exclamation.

Funny, now that you mention it, I notice myself mispronouncing /x/ as
[R\] in words where /xr/ isn't there. :) It seems that /x/ in /xr/
might be more accurately described as /X/, or at least, I've to
pronounce it closer to /X/ in order to get any trills out of it.


> IPA has a symbol for a bilabial trill: a small capital B or [B\] in
> CXS.
[...]

Right, I forgot to mention that one. :)


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:59:52AM +0200, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> On 2013-07-17 09:18, BPJ wrote:
> >I guess you can coarticulate a uvular and an alveolar trill/fricative
> >but I'd guess that you're just pronouncing a voiceless uvular trill.
> >A forcefully articulated /X/ easily becomes trilled. You should
> >rather easily feel if the uvula is vibrating; it kind of bubbles in
> >your throat.
> 
> .. like gargling water without the water, really.

Yep, that's a pretty accurate description.

OTOH, this discussion is starting to make me wonder if /x/ in my alien
conlang really has [x] and [X] as allophones. Previously I thought there
was only [x].


> Same for an alveolar trill, there's very little doubt when you get it
> right, the mouthfeel is unique.

True. I've been trying to dissociate /r/ from the original /xr/ (or /Xr/
or /R\/, whatever it was) context that I stumbled upon initially. I
still can't fully get rid of the [x]-like quality of my alveolar trills.
I still find myself making an initial [x] or [G] (or something along
those lines) in order to get the trill started. Is that normal?


> Non-plosives and non-trills can be ingressive (breathing *in*
> instead of *out*), which is a nice way of discovering how things are
> placed in one's mouth, as all the protruding bits are cooled down
> (provided that the temperature of the air is lower than that of the
> body of course).
[...]

Is it possible to have ingressive trills, or is that physically
impossible?


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 05:18:05AM -0700, Roger Mills wrote:
> From: H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]>
> 
> But about a week or so ago, while trying to figure out how exactly
> _ehrlu_ should be pronounced in my new alien conlang (something like
> /Exrlu/ where the /r/ is some kind of trill), I somehow accidentally
> stumbled upon a guttural, voiceless trill of some sort, which I shall
> refer to henceforth as /xr/. I still can't consistently produce it, but
> the combination [Exr] somehow gets my vocal apparatus in (or near) the
> state required for trilling, so once in a while a trill comes out.
> =========================================
> RM I can do [xr] or maybe [Xr] but I note that the velar/uvular pulls
> the tongue tip back towards the hard palate....

Yeah, that's what I noticed too. I've been trying to say /r/ without the
velarization, but so far I've only had limited success. My /r/'s are
still noticeably colored with [x] or [G].

Meanwhile, I've been experimenting with various mouth positions that
might strengthen my /r/'s. Anybody has any tips here?

I find that narrowing my mouth horizontally seems to help strengthen the
trill (I've no idea which muscles those are, or what they're called).
But it makes it harder to say /r/ in speech, because I don't normally
talk like that! It's like I pronounce everything else in my "normal"
mouth configuration, but then when I get to /r/ I have to reconfigure my
mouth, so the failure rate of actually producing a trill is rather high.
:-/

I've also found that certain positions of widening the lips sometimes
helps (but sometimes makes it worse). And I can't reliably reproduce the
positions that help.


[...]
> How do you tell the difference between an uvular trill
> and an alveolar trill? 
> ===================
> RM Oh my, just listen to any recording of Edith Piaf vs. any recording
> of a Spanish or Italian speaker!!!!
> ===========================

Hehe, OK. I should look that up online when I get home. :)

I think I can now identify the uvular trill (at least when I'm saying it
myself). Like others have said, it's like gargling without water. A
French oral tradition, perhaps? :-P :-P


[...]
> Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
> trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
> ==================================
> RM Try as I might, I cannot produce the uvular trill of Parisian
> French (except when gargling ;-(((( )  though I can do uvular stops
> and fricatives without a problem. When I try to "sound French (or
> German)", my r's usually come out as a velar fricative.

German has the uvular trill too?


> OTOH I've never had any trouble with the alveolar trill/tap in
> Spanish, Italian or Indonesian..... go figure !!

You've no idea how happy I am to have discovered how to pronounce
trills, however imperfect it may be at the moment... my entire childhood
of exposure to Malay and being unable to trill my /r/'s, and then
learning Russian in my adulthood and *still* being unable to trill my
/r/'s.

(I'm hoping that I'll be able to master [r] in the near future, so that
I can start working on the [r]/[r_j] contrast in Russian, which I had no
hope of before. Right now my trills require such specific configurations
that attempting to palatize them just doesn't work. How do those Russian
kids do it?!... OTOH, I'm partially comforted by the fact that Vladimir
Lenin himself had trouble with /r/. :-P)


> =========================================
> Also, why aren't there IPA symbols for voiced/voiceless trills? I can
> clearly pronounce both voiced and voiceless variants of /r/, and /xr/,
> whatever it is, is clearly voiceless. But AFAICT, the only IPA symbols
> for trills are [r] and [R\]?
> ================================
> RM Perhaps because they are (or were once thought to be) rare in
> languages of the world. Anyhow, there's a "voiceless" diacritic.

I see. There's also the bilabial trill [B\] in IPA; are there actually
any languages that use that phonemically??


T

-- 
Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals could believe them. -- George Orwell

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November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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