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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The Language of Pao

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:07:30 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

A much better short story about language is H. Beam Piper's "Omnilingual":
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19445/19445-h/19445-h.htm

stevo


On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:49 AM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> When I first read The Languages of Pao, I didn't realize how little
> information it had in it, and on re-reading it, I disliked the story so
> much I didn't finish it.
>
> stevo
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:31 AM, John Q <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Parts of your description remind me of Sylvia Sotomayor's Kelen.   It's
>> been years since I read The Languages of Pao.  You make me want to re-read
>> it.  While I'm at it, maybe I'll dust off Delany's Babel-17 as well.
>>
>> --John Q
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 22:20:10 -0600, Logan Kearsley <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> >So, I recently finished a 4-hour car ride and I'm about to be without
>> >internet access for a week. But before that happens, I need to get
>> >ideas out of my head:
>> >
>> >On said car ride, I finished _The Languages of Pao_. Despite being all
>> >about using artificial languages to influence culture, only one actual
>> >word of any language is ever mentioned. Nevertheless, the general
>> >structure of the Paonese language is described on several occasions,
>> >and seems to me rather odd. Thus, I spent the rest of the car ride
>> >involuntarily working out Paonese. Or, rather, working out how to make
>> >a language that would reasonably fit the descriptions of Paonese, as I
>> >am not Jack Vance and thus have little incentive to claim that this is
>> >actually Paonese.
>> >
>> >The language should be "polysynthetic", but not to the same extent as,
>> >say, Inuit, as all of the sentences described are described as
>> >containing lots of different noun phrases as separate words. The
>> >language should be without verbs, instead using suffixes on every noun
>> >to indicate what function they play in a scene.
>> >
>> >When you get to an example that claims a suffix specifically for
>> >"being the object of violence", I start to think that these are
>> >definitely *not* just a closed class of case markers or postpositions.
>> >Instead, I'm thinking an open class of bound, always-intransitive
>> >pseudo-verbal morphemes.
>> >
>> >There could, however, be a small closed class of "auxilliary
>> >verblikes" that would cover common generic functions kind of like case
>> >markers or auxilliary verbs like "do", "cause", "have done to", etc.
>> >Symmetrically, there can be a closed class of pronouns / deictics.
>> >
>> >Paonese is supposed to embody a culture of total stasis, so clearly it
>> >should have no grammatical tense. And that gets to the end of what I
>> >can induce from the text.
>> >
>> >So, now I've got two-and-two-halves lexical classes- nouns, pronouns,
>> >verblikes, and auxilliary verblikes. Argument agreement is unnecessary
>> >because all the verblikes are intransitive and morphologically bound
>> >to their single arguments, so verblikes can be pretty much invariant.
>> >Nice and simple. Now, I wonder about descriptors- adjectives and
>> >adverbs.
>> >
>> >To avoid unnecessary complexity, I'd like adjective functions to be
>> >handled by verbs or nouns, and this language has no verbs, so
>> >adjectives = nouns it is. This works out nicely with the polysynthesis
>> >as well if we allow lots of noun roots compounded together (with one
>> >verblike suffixed at the end) to be interpreted as alternate relevant
>> >descriptors of the same referent .E.g., "blackthing-cat" =
>> >"cat-blackthing" = "black cat". Different conjoining morphology could
>> >indicate freely productive compounds vs. set compounds with standard
>> >idiomatic meaning; e.g., "bluebird" vs. "a blue bird". (Herman
>> >Miller's recent idea for constructing arbitrarily complex compounds
>> >might come in handy here, but with the distinction between adjectives
>> >and nouns replaced by a distinction between idiomatic compound nouns
>> >and productive descriptive compounding.)
>> >
>> >All of the noun+verblike complexes are already acting pretty much like
>> >adverbs, so I think most contentful adverbs can be rendered by some
>> >such complex. Various other more abstract adverby things (like "very")
>> >can probably be rendered with special affixes that can just be part of
>> >the derivational morphology of the nouns and verblikes.
>> >
>> >At this point, I feel like there still needs to be some way to mark
>> >off separate clauses and kind of tie things together- a syntactic head
>> >for the sentence, if you will. With the way noun+verblike complexes
>> >work, I'm in a head-final mood, and I kinda like evidentials, so we'll
>> >have a basic clause structure of a sequence of arbitrarily many
>> >noun+verblike complexes concluded by an evidential marker. To keep
>> >with the polysynthesis, though, these can't be just regular ol'
>> >evidential markers. They'll be bound to some other morpheme that
>> >indicates the general type of the event described and the speaker's
>> >attitude towards it (kind of riffing off of Tatari Faran's finalizers
>> >here), along with some adverby morphology for intensification/hedging
>> >(e.g. "I saw it" vs. "I so totally saw this, no joke" vs. "I saw
>> >something, I'm pretty this is what was going on" as variations on the
>> >"personal experience" evidential).
>> >
>> >There is no evidence for this kind of thing in _The Languages of Pao_,
>> >but all of the examples are very simple sentences, and I expect the
>> >guy in-world doing the glossing just left out the boring standard
>> >sentence endings.
>> >
>> >And that's about as far as I got on my car ride. To ponder at a lake
>> >this week: relative clauses & nominalization and larger discourse
>> >structures.
>> >
>> >-l.
>>
>
>

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