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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Rolling your R's

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:30:43 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

2013-07-18 09:56, Elena ``of Valhalla'' skrev:
> On 2013-07-17 at 17:45:53 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>> My native dialect doesn't have alveolar trills, but pt-BR does have
>> them in some accents. I find it easy to pronounce (bilabiar trill is
>> far more difficult), but many of my relatives are unable to pronounce
>> the alveolar trill.
>>
>> I wonder how common it is for people to be unable to pronounce sounds
>> of other accents of their own language...
>
> I can't pronounce the alveolar trill, as well, and it is a sound
> in what is supposed to be my own accent of Italian.

So what *do* you pronounce? An uvular trill/fricative/approximant
or an alveolar fricative/approximant?

I'm in fact a speaker of two somewhat different Swedish
accents/dialects, one of them having [ɾ]/[r] as a simple/geminate
pair and the other [ɾ]/[r]/[ɻ] in rather free variation. The
interesting thing is that [ɻ] is an innovation; I can still
remember a time when I didn't use it, and younger speakers of
either of my accents have only [ɻ], so I'm conservative! There
have always been some speakers of Gothenburg Swedish who used
uvular /r/ as an individual trait; apparently it runs in
families, so there may be a physiological difficulty pronouncing
alveolar/retroflex rhotics for some. I don't normally speak with
[ʀ] or [ʁ] but I have never had any difficulty pronouncing and
using either even before I studied phonetics. I had a
kindergarten teacher from Denmark when I was 2-3 y.o. and I could
do a fabulous imitation of her accent, or so they say. I can
produce an epiglottal trill, and I use it when imitating a dog's
growling, but I can't use it in speech.

>
> I believe this case is quite common: it has a popular name (erre moscia)
> and a page on the italian and spanish wikipedias:
>
> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotacismo_(medicina)
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotacismo

I would have expected 'rotacismo' to denote a replacement of /z/
or /l/ with a rhotic -- that's what it usually means in
historical linguistics.

>
> (which btw are a bit catastrophists: social reclusion as a result?
> at least here in Italy once you get to high school it becomes
> a non-issue.)

It's a bit like having [ʃ] instead of [x]/[χ] in Gothenburg. You
are sure to get teased for it at school, at least if you're a
boy, but people grow up. As a woman it may actually get worse as
you grow older, as [ʃ] is perceived as a snobbish 'lady in fur
coat' trait.

2013-07-17 14:18, Roger Mills skrev:
> RM Try as I might, I cannot produce the uvular trill of
> Parisian French (except when gargling ;-(((( ) though I can do
> uvular stops and fricatives without a problem. When I try to
> "sound French (or German)", my r's usually come out as a velar
> fricative. OTOH I've never had any trouble with the alveolar
> trill/tap in Spanish, Italian or Indonesian..... go figure !!

No worries. Most Germans and French actually use a fricative! My
only problem in this department is that [ɻ] may sneak in instead
of [r] when I try to speak Finnish or Italian.

/bpj

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