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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Rolling your R's

From:

Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:43:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

The amount of times I hear English people attempting to do Edith Piaf style accents and thinking it's great French! Am I right when I tell them that they're doing the French equivalent of Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins? 

On 17 Jul 2013, at 22:17, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 17 July 2013 21:15, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Hehe, OK. I should look that up online when I get home. :)
>> 
>> I think I can now identify the uvular trill (at least when I'm saying it
>> myself). Like others have said, it's like gargling without water. A
>> French oral tradition, perhaps? :-P :-P
>> 
>> 
> Okay, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I guess I have to since this
> bit of misinformation keeps coming back on the list: The French rhotic is
> normally *not* an uvular trill [ʀ]. It's an uvular *fricative* [ʁ] in most
> of the country (well, that or an approximant. Somehow the IPA uses the same
> symbol for both), and an alveolar trill [r] in some Southern accents. The
> uvular trill exists only in the speech of *some* Parisians (of whom Edith
> Piaf was the most well known), and it's an accent that is strongly decried,
> and made fun of, by the rest of France. In any case, it's not a sound you
> should use as a foreigner to speak French, as people may take it as if you
> were making fun of them (it *is* jarring). The uvular fricative is far
> easier to pronounce, so if you want to speak French I'd advise you to focus
> on that one anyway :) .
> 
> That said, if you just want to learn to pronounce and recognise uvular
> trills just for the sake of it, knock yourself out with Piaf, she's got
> very strong ones!
> 
> 
>> 
>> [...]
>>> Do y'all have trouble pronouncing trills? And if not, what kind of
>>> trill(s) can you pronounce, and how?
>>> ==================================
>>> RM Try as I might, I cannot produce the uvular trill of Parisian
>>> French (except when gargling ;-(((( )  though I can do uvular stops
>>> and fricatives without a problem.
>> 
> 
> Strangely enough, I have no problem pronouncing uvular trills, fricatives
> and approximants, but have a hard time with uvular stops.
> 
> 
>> When I try to "sound French (or
>>> German)", my r's usually come out as a velar fricative.
>> 
>> German has the uvular trill too?
>> 
>> 
> It has [r], [ʁ] and [ʀ] in free variation for a single /r/ phoneme, mostly
> depending on dialect I believe. I have no idea which is the more common.
> 
> Some Dutch dialects also have the uvular trill as realisation of their
> rhotic phoneme. And then there's the infamous "kinderen-voor-kinderen r",
> which is pronounced as an uvular trill word-initially, and
> syllable-initially after a consonant, and as an alveolar approximant in
> coda position or between vowels. Some people affect that pronunciation to
> sound "posh", but to me it just sounds like they're trying too much. I
> myself use an alveolar flap/trill, but that's because my first exposition
> to Dutch was through its Southern dialects :) .
> 
> 
>> 
>>> OTOH I've never had any trouble with the alveolar trill/tap in
>>> Spanish, Italian or Indonesian..... go figure !!
>> 
>> You've no idea how happy I am to have discovered how to pronounce
>> trills, however imperfect it may be at the moment... my entire childhood
>> of exposure to Malay and being unable to trill my /r/'s, and then
>> learning Russian in my adulthood and *still* being unable to trill my
>> /r/'s.
>> 
>> 
> When I first started learning Spanish, something like 22 years ago, I
> despaired of ever getting both its rhotics right. The flap was relatively
> easy. But the trill mystified me. Until I somehow got it one day (after
> repeating about a thousand times "el perro de San Roque no tiene rabo"!).
> Since then I never forgot it. Trilling is like biking: after you learn it
> you never forget :) . Actually, it went so far that when I got the trill
> right I somehow lost the ability to make correct flaps (I would trill them
> too much), and I had to relearn to make flaps! :P
> 
> The trick that did it for me, IIRC, was to stop focussing on tongue
> movement and start focussing on my breath. Alveolar trills are not produced
> by consciously moving your tongue, but rather by placing your tongue in the
> right position, relaxing its tip, and letting the air flow do the work for
> you. The difficult part is relaxing the tongue just enough. Relaxing it too
> much will result in not much of anything, while not relaxing it enough will
> produce a fricative. There's a kind of Goldilocks zone of relaxation when
> it comes to trills :P.
> 
> 
>> (I'm hoping that I'll be able to master [r] in the near future, so that
>> I can start working on the [r]/[r_j] contrast in Russian, which I had no
>> hope of before. Right now my trills require such specific configurations
>> that attempting to palatize them just doesn't work. How do those Russian
>> kids do it?!... OTOH, I'm partially comforted by the fact that Vladimir
>> Lenin himself had trouble with /r/. :-P)
>> 
>> 
> Palatalised trills are easy enough. My own problem is being unable to
> distinguish alveolo-palatal fricatives from postalveolar ones!
> -- 
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> 
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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