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CONLANG  July 2013, Week 3

CONLANG July 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Rolling your R's

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:02:52 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

2013/7/20 H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]>:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59:25AM -0700, Garth Wallace wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:47 AM, H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> > OK, now I'm *really* wondering if what I think I'm pronouncing as a
>> > flap is actually just a really fast [d], because it has absolutely
>> > *no* resemblance to the way I'm pronouncing my trills right now!
>>
>> A flap IS a really fast [d], more or less: the articulation is the
>> same but contact between the tongue and the roof of the mouth is brief
>> enough that the airflow isn't interrupted. The English /d/ is usually
>> [ɾ] intervocalically.
>
> OK, good to know. Well, then the description of [r] being a "prolonged
> [4]" is completely inaccurate, because I simply cannot produce any trill

I'd rather say "many [4] repeated in rapid vibration" than "prolonged [4]".

> from that POA at all! I have to hold my tongue differently, slightly
> raised in the middle, and contract the roof of my mouth somewhat, and
> breathe differently, in order to make [r]. Completely unlike [d] or [4].

In order to achieve the vibration, it seems that the tongue must be
compressed with more force against the palate. It's probably this that
changes the place of articulation.

2013/7/18 Elena ``of Valhalla'' <[log in to unmask]>:
> On 2013-07-17 at 17:45:53 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>> My native dialect doesn't have alveolar trills, but pt-BR does have
>> them in some accents. I find it easy to pronounce (bilabiar trill is
>> far more difficult), but many of my relatives are unable to pronounce
>> the alveolar trill.
>>
>> I wonder how common it is for people to be unable to pronounce sounds
>> of other accents of their own language...
>
> I can't pronounce the alveolar trill, as well, and it is a sound
> in what is supposed to be my own accent of Italian.
>
> I believe this case is quite common: it has a popular name (erre moscia)

I think that Portuguese doesn't have a similar name because there are
lots of possible allophones widely used for <rr>.

> and a page on the italian and spanish wikipedias:
>
> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotacismo_(medicina)
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotacismo
>
> (which btw are a bit catastrophists: social reclusion as a result?
> at least here in Italy once you get to high school it becomes
> a non-issue.)

This raise another question: are some phones objectivally more
difficult than others, independently of language?

pt-BR native small children usually can't pronounce alveolar flaps,
trills or lateral palatals [L]. All of them are pronounced as [l]
until the age of 4, more or less. BTW, if my perception doesn't fail
me, children pronounce nasal vowels quite easily, what may be a
surprise for natives of languages without them.

What the last phones that children are able to produce in your native
languages? (For comparison.)

>
> --
> Elena ``of Valhalla''

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