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CONLANG  August 2013, Week 2

CONLANG August 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Naming Things

From:

"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 9 Aug 2013 10:15:28 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (182 lines)

On Fri, Aug 09, 2013 at 12:11:58AM -0400, Patrick VanDusen wrote:
> How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages
> called "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the
> language called "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like
> "Red Hill" or "Green Groves"?

1) Ebisédian:

"Ebisédian" is actually an exonym. It comes from the word _3bis33'di_
[@\bi's@\:di], which is the plural epicene form of "person", that is to
say, "people". Foreigner visitors to the Ferochromon didn't understand
what this word meant, so they took it to be the name of the people, and
hence the Anglicised derivation Ebisédi + -ian for the language spoken
by that people. Internally, there is no real name for the language
either -- because the speakers only know of one! If asked, they just
refer to it as _ni 3bis33'di d3 3t3mii'_ [ni @\bi's@\:di d@\ ?@\t@\'mi:]
(the words of the people).

I have only coined a scant few place names in Ebisédian; most of them
have no distinctive meaning, they just follow the usual noun-ablaut
mechanism and proper noun prefixes (e.g., _ekaasi_ [E'ka:si], name of a
famous king; _`ylii_ ['Hyli:], name of a queen; _isili_, name of a small
village).

2) Tatari Faran:

Tatari Faran is an endonym meaning "the speech of Fara (i.e., the
Plain)". It is used to distinguish itself from various local dialects
that have diverged from a common ancestral tongue, spoken by the tribes
that live on the Fara; it designates the "official" common dialect that
everyone understands.

Due to the relatively small area of the Fara, many landmarks are quite
unique, so it's hard to tell if a particular word is a noun referring to
that object, or the actual name of that object.

For example, _huara_ "lake" refers to the lake on the southwest corner
of Fara -- the only lake in Fara! Hence, you have words like _huaranui_
"southwards" (lit.  towards the Lake).

"Fara" itself is a name of this sort: it refers to the plain at the
bottom of the caldera in which the people live. Is it the name of that
place? Or is it a generic word meaning "plain"? Perhaps it's both!

There are also other words like _buara_ "volcano", that can refer to any
of the numerous volcanoes in the land; but when no referent is obvious
from context, it refers to *the* active volcano that sits roughly in the
center of the Fara, that featured prominently in the history of the
people. Did it start out as a generic word for "volcano" and eventually
specialize to become the name of that particular volcano? Or did it
start out as the name of the volcano, and eventually got generalized to
refer to other volcanoes? Right now, I've no idea, and neither does my
informant. ;-)  In any case, you have words that are clearly derived
from the use of the word as a proper noun -- _buaranui_ "lit. towards
the volcano", for example, means "northward" for the southerners, and
"southwards" for the northerners, because the volcano is what divides
North Fara from South Fara!

As for personal names, so far I've a handful unanalyzable names like
_tuaman_, _misuu_, _daiman_, _kumbi_. But for a few famous characters,
I've also coined long-form names; e.g., the short name _teke_ has the
long form _tekekuhakirakisan_, which *may* have been derived from an
ancient construction in which a name is followed by a string of
adjectives describing the person. Some of the morphemes can be matched
up with dictionary words, but some others have unclear origin --
possibly due to fossilization of ancient words no longer in use. Another
example is _fia_ -> _fiajiniruteirisui_. These long-form names are
rarely used in everyday speech; they are only used on formal occasions
like the naming of a new child, official recognition of achievements,
funerals, etc..


> I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go
> much beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always
> seems so *forced* to me. I end up gravitating toward names like the
> examples I gave above, but I can never get over the feeling that this
> is NOT how things are named.
[...]

This is one reason I haven't given a name to my new alien conlang. I
hesitate to simply coin a random word for it -- I need to figure out
enough of the language to know the naming rules, before I can give it a
proper noun^H^H^H^H I mean, name. Currently, I only have incomplete
pieces of the grammar, a probably-incomplete set of phonemes, and a
single character name. Not enough to go on when it comes to naming the
language.

In any case, when it comes to natlangs, natlang names tend to be either
exonyms or endonyms. Exonyms are what other people call the native
speakers and their language; endonyms are what the people call
themselves. The two often don't match -- e.g., "German" (exonym) vs.
"Deutsch" (endonym). In fact, the same language can have multiple
exonyms; e.g., the Russian name for the German language is немецкий
_nemétskij_, completely different "German" or "Deutsch". How this came
about can make for rather interesting conlang material.


On Thu, Aug 08, 2013 at 11:29:47PM -0500, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
> that's a perfectly good way of doing it. my conlangs have a pretty
> strong historical dimension, so even though something was
> transparently named e.g.  "Red Hill" somewhere back in history it
> might've gotten fossilized as "Reddul" or "Ro-dille" or something (you
> know, but a conlang equivalent).

In Chinese, many names have transparent derivations -- _Shanghai_ "above
the sea" (i.e. upon the sea), _Henan_ "river south" (i.e., south of the
River), _Hunan_ "lake south" (south of the Lake), etc.. They haven't
changed much since the olden days when they were named. :) Though,
granted, the nature of Chinese writing does obscure the fact that the
*pronunciation* has probably shifted significantly.

So fossilization isn't strictly necessary in names. ;-)


> i also take many placenames and personal names from *other* of my
> concultures (some of which i haven't even fleshed out beyond such
> words).  geographical names - of mountains, rivers, forests, etc. -
> are especially apt to be retained when a people speaking one language
> overtakes another.  but i've extended this even personal names.
> 
> i always think of the situation i encountered in Egypt, where probably
> the majority of people have muslim names in Arabic that mean things
> like "most praiseworthy" or "happy" or whatever with perfect
> transparency; but then you've got people with these ancient Coptic
> names - *Shenouda* comes to mind - that don't mean a damn thing
> anymore, they're just nice names.
> 
> which amounts to, often, i'll just make up a cool-sounding word and
> pretend that at some point in history it meant something significant
> in some other neighboring conculture. i make verisimilitude a top
> priority in my conlanging, and even i have zero problem with just
> pulling a name out of nowhere, assuming it fits into the appropriate
> contemporary phonology and phonotactics and whatever.
[...]

That works too. :)


On Fri, Aug 09, 2013 at 11:29:38AM -0400, Charlie Brickner wrote:
> Senjecas means “ancient language” or “old tongue”.  Of course, in the
> beginning, there was no name since there was no other language, thus
> no need to differentiate.  The name was given it later when daughter
> languages began to develop.

I like this idea! I've blatantly borrowed the idea to Tatari Faran. ;-)


> I have devised a way of naming places (or people), although I have not
> yet used it in any of my concultures.
>
> Take the name of a place, then change the spelling by using the next
> letter or second letter, etc., consonant for consonant and vowel for
> vowel.  You can use whichever alphabet you want.  If your fictional
> place reminds you of a real place use that name.  I use <c> for /ʧ,
> tS/.  You can also insert <sh>, <ts>, <ng>, etc., if you want.  
>
> Thus, by advancing one letter Timbuktu becomes vonchalva, Shangrila
> becomes tepsoma.  These can then be adapted to your conlang if need
> be.  If your conlang requires that place names end in <a>, then
> tepsome becomes tepsoma.  Place the accent according to your conlang’s
> system.  Senjecan phonotactics require that vonchalva become
> vontsálvyas and tepsoma become tefsómyas.   I treat place names of
> more than one word as if they were one word, e.g., New Orleans becomes
> pixusmiept (that may need to be tweaked!).  Pronounce the <x>
> according to your own phonology.
>
> I’m sure I’m not the first person to think of this, although I've not
> seen it elsewhere.
> Charlie

That's a rather clever idea!

Though I wouldn't do that in my own conlangs, I prefer to have names
that are *somewhat* possibly derived from words in an ancient version of
the language.


T

-- 
I am not young enough to know everything. -- Oscar Wilde

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February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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