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CONLANG  August 2013, Week 2

CONLANG August 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: subject and object covered by a single case?

From:

qiihoskeh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 03:37:35 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (64 lines)

I'm sure I have a conlang sketch with one case for agent, patient, and intransitive subject vs other cases such as genitive, dative, and instrumental, but I have no idea which. It probably uses a noun hierarchy with obviation. I think there must be natlangs which also qualify.


On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 00:02:48 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>i've been thinking of some apparently ergative-absolutive usages in English
>where a verb is used in active form that has passive meaning. e.g.
>"the book reads quickly," "the car drives nicely," "the bourbon drinks
>smoothly."
>
>and i'm wondering how common it is, in natlangs or conlangs, for something
>like this to be not only possible but the *norm*. well, keep reading.
>
>i'm working on this much for a beloved conlang of mine:
>
>*qiʔkɑ-n*
>drank.INTRANS-1SG
>'I drank' ... with *no object* (or perhaps a partitive genitive, e.g. "*some
>* water")
>
>*lij-æn           qiʔkɑ-ʔ*
>water-ABS   drank.INTRANS-3
>'The water *was drunk*' (cf. the water drank [smoothly])
>
>*lij-æn           qik<t>ɑ-n
>*
>water-ABS    drank<TRANS>-1SG
>'I drank *the* water.' (as opposed to some water)
>
>thus, in my current version of things, i apparently have *two* possible
>"transitivities," *intransitive* and *transitive*, but they are divided
>differently from e.g. English. "I drank (some water)" is intransitive
>grammatically because it doesn't focus on a definite object, and of course
>"The water was drunk" is intransitive because the patient is the
>grammatical subject.
>
>but "i drank *the* *water*" must be transitive, and the patient is put in
>the absolutive.
>
>with me so far? this is kosher, right?
>
>i suppose this implies that non-pronominal agents of "transitive" sentences
>ought to be in an ergative case, e.g.
>*āχ-t           lij-æn           qik<t>ɑ-**ʔ*
>man-ERG   water-ABS     drank<TRANS>-3
>'The man drank *the *water' (where the verb agrees with....'man'??)
>
>i guess all i'm really doing is taking a regular ergative-absolutive system
>and labeling a certain kind of usage (with a non-definite object) as
>intransitive.
>
>but the more i think about it, the more i wonder if i could get away with *
>trashing* the ergative (which still would've existed historically, but no
>longer) which was subverted by a topicalizing construction:
>
>*āχ-æn -- lij-æn  qik<t>ɑ-**ʔ*     *>*   *āχ-æn lij-æn  qik<t>ɑ-**ʔ*
>'The man, he drank the water'   >   'The man drank the water.'
>
>ONE case for subject and object, that is still a case (contrasting with GEN
>and VOC)? there have got to be natlang (or even conlang) precedents for
>something like this, yes?
>
>matt

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