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CONLANG  September 2013, Week 1

CONLANG September 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Colloquial French resources

From:

Aidan Grey <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Sep 2013 14:50:04 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (90 lines)

Thank you, Christophe! Polypersonalism is the main reason Wassa is going
polysynthetic. And thank for your offer of additional explanation!

I do have a question or two other than Polyperson agreement:

- What is happening with gender, as a generality? Are they staying strong?
Merging? Diverging along different lines? Expanding / multiplying?

- Adjectives: in spoken french, I understand that most adjectives have one
form, for all genders and numbers (an example being
turc/turque/turcs/turques for 'Turkish', all pronounced /tyRk/. How strong
is that? Is it accurate?

Besides these obvious bits (and pas alone for negation), are there any
other details that differ markedly from literary French? Anywhere I can
look for a list / explanation of the major points of difference?


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 30 August 2013 16:11, Jonathan Beagley <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
>
> > I'll third that.
> >
> > Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France
> for
> > the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
> > having also studied it at university.
> >
> > There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at
> least
> > as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally
> I've
> > never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
> >
> >
> Quite simple: in Modern Spoken French, it's quite common to include all
> markings of person on the verb for the subject, and optionally direct and
> indirect object (the so-called "personal pronouns"), even when said
> arguments are already indicated somewhere else in the sentence. So
> sentences like these are common:
> - _J'lui ai parlé hier à ce gars-là_ ("I talked to that man yesterday".
> _lui_ is present, despite the indirect object _à ce gars-là_ being already
> present in the sentence);
> - _Tu vois, ma femme elle en a toujours des bonnes idées_ ("You see, my
> wife always has good ideas", the subject and direct object are both marked
> on the verb, by _elle_ and en_ respectively, despite being present as full
> noun phrases in the sentence).
> My argument is that such sentences are an indication that the so-called
> "personal pronouns" have moved away from being clitics to becoming
> full-blown personal agreement affixes of the verb, turning French verbs
> into polypersonal verbs, marking not only the subject but also the object
> and the indirect object when those are present (as in Basque for instance).
> Actually, more things have become affixes to the verb: the negative mark
> _pas_ for instance.
> This has resulted in added freedom in the position of noun phrases, and the
> sentence _tu vois, ma femmes des bonnes idées elle en a toujours_ is a
> perfectly grammatical alternative to my second example above.
> As such, French starts looking more like a polysynthetic language than like
> its fellow Romance languages.
> As for cases where those polypersonal agreement suffixes are not used, I
> attribute them to code-switching, something very common in situations of
> effective diglossia. This does muddy the waters a bit, but doesn't change
> my opinion that the verb in Modern Spoken French has truly evolved
> full-blown polypersonal agreement.
>
> On 30 August 2013 16:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
>
> > I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found nothing. Please
> link
> > a free paper.
> >
> >
> I have yet to find a single good paper devoted to that phenomenon in
> French. However, I've seen it mentioned in throwaway lines in linguistic
> articles on more than one occasion, so I'd be surprised if no article
> existed at all.
>
> And of course during my writing of this post quite a few links have already
> been given by other people. The power of the Conlang list at work! :P
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

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