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CONLANG  September 2013, Week 1

CONLANG September 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Colloquial French resources

From:

Jonathan Beagley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 1 Sep 2013 22:48:51 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (147 lines)

2013/9/1 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

> On 31 August 2013 01:20, Jonathan Beagley <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
>
> > I certainly did not misunderstand my professor. He made his point of view
> > quite clear, and other professors, particularly the semantics professor,
> > mentioned his point of view as being "absurd." Luckily, said syntax
> > professor retired this year. I should make clear that he didn't say that
> > all Spoken French was wrong, but he would not hesitate to "throw out"
> > certain examples if he deemed them to be agrammatical.
> >
> >
> What?!
>
> Yes, this was one of the things the two semantics specialists in
particular found absurd. The dept. was actually quite divided on many
issues; the program was recently changed from a pure linguistics program to
having half of the content geared towards computational linguists.


>
> > Muller has written a book on French syntax: the examples you will see
> there
> > are not based on any corpus but are merely created by Muller himself as
> > examples of "grammatical French."
> >
> >
> In any other field of science, such behaviour would be called "making up
> data", or as we like to call it succinctly "fraud". Someone who would do
> that would not only be fired before they reached retirement age, they would
> also actively be prosecuted and could risk fines or even prison, depending
> on the level of fraud one is talking about. The simple fact that someone
> like that could even *teach* tells us clearly how far linguistics is from
> being a true science, unfortunately :(.
>
>
Yes, it's really a shame. But, as I've already said, at least he's
retiring. The remaining professors seemed quite open-minded. I've heard
that the likely replacement for Muller is one of his "disciples." I've
decided to forget about my master's in linguistics, at least here. The
program did not meet my expectations by far. I had to explain to certain
programming professors the existence of a particular module in Python that
they had never heard of, and their code was indecipherable...


>
> > As Christophe has mentioned, this kind of viewpoint is quite prevalent in
> > France, even in linguistics departments, although certain profs were
> > certainly not in agreement and expounded the use of corpus-based studies.
> >
> >
> That it was not *all* professors is mind-boggling on its own!
>
> On 31 August 2013 02:15, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Because the view you attribute to your professor is so foolish, I still
> > suspect a misunderstanding, though not out of any obtuseness on your
> part;
> > you say he made his point of view quite clear, but did you have the
> > opportunity to enter into dialogue with him to ascertain whether it
> really
> > was as foolish as it seemed? The foolishness of the view you report lies
> > not at all in eschewing corpus data or inventing or throwing out data,
> but
> > rather in conflating the category of incontrovertibly "wrong" data, such
> as
> > is produced by foreign speakers (e.g. me when attempting to speak
> French),
> > with the category of data consistent with certain dialects of French but
> > not with the dialect under study (e.g. standard written French).
>
>
> Jonathan mentioned his subject of study was *Spoken French*, not standard
> written French. In that case, anything spoken by a native speaker is
> acceptable data, by definition, and regardless of dialect.
>

Agreed. I should also mention that, contrary to the Anglo-saxon university
system, much to my dismay, university is very much lecture-based. Dialogue,
as such, never really occurs, except for a few professors who specifically
emphasized that they wanted their courses to be "American-style seminars."


>
>
> > I wonder if your professor would accept that such a conflation is
> invalid,
> > but, perhaps because his focus was on standard written French, was
> > lackadaisical about discriminating among data that was not standard
> written
> > French. Many's the syntax professor who is la
> > ckadais
> > ical in that way, saying "In [Language X] you can't say [Y]" when in fact
> > they mean only that you can't say [Y] in the dialect of [X] that's under
> > study.
> >
> >
> There is enough difference between the two statements that I wouldn't
> expect a *linguist* to make such a conflation. And Jonathan has probably
> had more than just 1 lesson with the man. I think we can trust him when he
> says he is not misunderstanding. Unfortunately, this doesn't sound *at all*
> far-fetched to me. I've experienced the French education system first-hand
> and I know the kind of damage it can do to one's sanity, especially to
> those who stayed in the system and started teaching.
> I mean, have you heard about the New Math blunder (read
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math). In France, New Math were adopted
> at
> a level not seen even in American schools. The French school system
> completely changed the maths curriculum, teaching set theory to 6-year-old
> kids *at the exclusion of anything else*, including plain arithmetic. It
> took nearly a decade for the system to backtrack on this folly, leading to
> years and years of children leaving primary school barely able to do simple
> additions.
> In view of such widespread institutionalised foolishness, having such a
> prescriptivist syntax professor doesn't seem as far-fetched as it first
> looked like, does it?
>

Unfortunately, I had this professor for an entire year, three classes
total. His typology class was a total bore. He gave us a list of suggested
reading at the beginning of the year, which included Bernard Comrie's book
on language universals. His course for the entire semester was a
chapter-by-chapter translation of Comrie's book into French. It was in the
same exact order as the book and he used the same examples as Comrie. I had
read the first half of the book within about 2 weeks, so there was
absolutely nothing interesting to learn from his course. And then for his
syntax courses, he spent half the course making off-the-cuff remarks
criticizing Chomskyan syntax without ever really addressing his issues with
the Minimalist Program. If you're going to criticize someone, at least have
legitimate arguments.

I also worked as an English language assistant for a year in the French
public school system. It was a nightmare. If you want to know why the
average French person can't speak English well, look no further than the
education system. Anything can happen.


> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

Jonathan

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