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CONLANG  September 2013, Week 1

CONLANG September 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Colloquial French resources

From:

Jonathan Beagley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:41:19 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

2013/9/3 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

> On 2 September 2013 22:50, Aidan Grey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Christophe! Polypersonalism is the main reason Wassa is going
> > polysynthetic. And thank for your offer of additional explanation!
> >
> >
> You're welcome :).
>
>
> > I do have a question or two other than Polyperson agreement:
> >
> > - What is happening with gender, as a generality? Are they staying
> strong?
> > Merging? Diverging along different lines? Expanding / multiplying?
> >
> >
> Despite the difficulties outlined in previous posts of this thread (i.e.
> what happens when grammatical and referent gender don't match), gender
> remains strong in French. The masculine/feminine distinction shows no sign
> of eroding, nor any sign of breaking up into more genders. Indeed, the
> latest trend (in France at least) has been to *add* gendered variants,
> especially to nouns of professions that existed only in one gender.
> Nowadays all have both a masculine and a feminine variant (in some cases
> those are identical in form, resulting in effectively epicene nouns, like
> the noun _ministre_: "minister", which can now be used both with _le_ and
> _la_, solving the issue of the very awkward _madame le ministre_).
>

Speaking of masculine and feminine variants, I am consistently at a loss
when it comes to "médecin". My doctor is female, so this is frequently an
issue for me. I generally say, "le médecin" and then use the pronoun _elle_
to refer to her subsequently, but this seems awkward. I know one
work-around is "femme médecin", but it's such a bloody awkward expression
that I can never bring myself to use it.


> What does seem to happen though is the reclassification of somewhat
> uncommon nouns based on shape, i.e. nouns switch gender compared to their
> gender in Written French because they are not commonly used, and their
> shape suggests the other gender (due to analogy with more common nouns).
> Another interesting phenomenon when it comes to gender is the
> reclassification of gender of entire *phrases* based on the effective
> referent. Let me give an example: in Spoken French expression starting with
> _espèce de..._ are very common. They are difficult to translate, ranging
> from meanings like "some kind of..." to effectively augmentatives (but
> always with some kind of pejorative meaning, or at least slightly
> denigrating). Examples are _espèce d'imbécile_ (used vocatively, it means
> "what an idiot!", but it can also be used in a sentence), _espèce de
> voiture_: "some kind of car", etc. The interesting thing about such
> expressions is that the head of those phrases is the noun _espèce_, which
> is feminine in French. So one would expect _une espèce d'imbécile_, _une
> espèce de voiture_, etc. But in Spoken French, the gender of such phrases
> is normally the gender of the actual referent, i.e. the gender of the noun
> used as modifier to the _espèce de..._ phrase! In other words, if
> _imbécile_ refers to a male (it's an adjective used nominally, and
> epicene), one will normally say _un espèce d'imbécile_ (with the masculine
> indefinite article rather than the feminine one!). It's as if _espèce
> de..._ has lost its grammatical status and behaves like a prefix rather
> than like a head noun.
> this phenomenon isn't restricted to _espèce de..._: other similar
> expressions have the same behaviour. Although most of them belong to
> impolite language, so I will refrain from naming them unless pushed :P.
>
>
Allow me to butt in here. :P This is, indeed, a common phenomenon and one
I've noticed frequently. One of the other "impolite" expressions that
Christophe is referring to here is _putain de..._, which, I believe (and
this was also claimed by one of my professors) is the source of the
"confusion" with _espèce de..._. AFAIK, "putain" as used in _putain de_ has
always behaved like a prefix and never as a head noun (correct me if I'm
wrong), which means that you would say _une putain de voiture_ or _un
putain de jour de merde_ (sorry, I can only think of bad things with this
one xD). As a result, it's likely that _espèce_ has analogized after
_putain de_.


>
> > - Adjectives: in spoken french, I understand that most adjectives have
> one
> > form, for all genders and numbers (an example being
> > turc/turque/turcs/turques for 'Turkish', all pronounced /tyRk/. How
> strong
> > is that? Is it accurate?
> >
> >
> It's accurate as long as you don't factor in *liaison*. But then things get
> complicated in that when does liaison happen is a complex issue, that
> depends both on the phonological and grammatical environment, and the
> actual words in question. Liaison is not a purely phonological phenomenon.
>
> Also, "most adjectives" might be a bit exaggerated. Still quite a lot of
> commonly (and less commonly) used adjectives have at least different
> masculine and feminine forms, although most don't change in the plural
> indeed.
>
>
Another note is that many of the doubled vowels are apparently indicators
of vocalic gemination in certain parts of France (according to some of my
professors and/or reading I've done, but I haven't been able to confirm
this), so that there is indeed a difference between, for example, _viré_
and _virée_.


>
> > Besides these obvious bits (and pas alone for negation), are there any
> > other details that differ markedly from literary French? Anywhere I can
> > look for a list / explanation of the major points of difference?
> >
> >
> So many! If you can locate _Colloquial French Grammar: a practical guide_
> by Rodney Ball, I advise you to have a look at it. It's not perfect, but
> it's good enough as a starting point :). I couldn't even start to give you
> a list, as the differences are everywhere :).
>

Another difference I have noticed is with indirect questions.

Standard Written French: Je lui ai demandé combien c'était
Spoken French: Je lui ai demandé c'était combien

The first time I heard this was from a friend of mine from Martinique and I
assumed it was a dialectal thing, but I have since heard the same
construction relatively often from my boyfriend who has spent his life
between Rennes and Toulouse.

You will also get things like:

Standard Written French: Je lui ai demandé ce qu'il avait fait
Spoken French: Je lui ai demandé qu'est-ce qu'il avait fait

In other words, the "normal" interrogative structure is maintained and
simply embedded in the main clause.


> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

Jonathan

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