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CONLANG  September 2013, Week 1

CONLANG September 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Choosing a word for "German"

From:

Scott Villanueva-Hlad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 4 Sep 2013 18:16:48 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (122 lines)

So my instincts were right. The question is one of history. I need to
determine that first before I go. All that I have read here has been so
fascinating! Thanks so much!
(My curiosity is still high about the V Root)
Scotto

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 9:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"

"The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with these peoples,
but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the origin of the Latin term is not
certain)."

From "herman" (herr man), warrior.

God bless you always, all ways,
Paul


On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:36 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 04/09/2013 03:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
>
>> A couple questions to consider: where exactly in central-eastern 
>> Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans come in contact with Germanic 
>> speakers?
>>
>
> Quite so!  Both are important.
>
> The Slave -nem-_ names, e.g. came about because the contacts between 
> Slav and Germans were not exactly friendly.
> Calling them "mutes", i.e. people who don't speak properly, is hostile 
> or at best unfriendly.  it's like the way the ancient Greeks called 
> non-Greeks _barbaroi_ - their speech just sounded like "bar bar ..."
>
> The Alaman- group are simply naming all the Germans from the 
> 'tribe'/group they first encountered, i.e. Alemanni  ("all
> men") who broke through the Roman limes in 213 and expanded during the 
> 3rd century, raiding the Roman provinces and settling on the left bank 
> of the Rhine from the 4th century.
>
> Similarly the Romans called all the Hellenes "Graeci", because the 
> Graeci were the first group they made serious contact with; hence we 
> now normally call them Greeks, not Hellenes  ;)
>
> Presumably it is fir similar reasons that you have Estonian & Finnish 
> _saksa_, the Saxons being the main group these people first 
> encountered.  I don't know the origin of the Latvian and Lithuanian 
> words, but I suspect it probably derives from the name of another 
> Germanic 'tribe'.
>
> The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with these 
> peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the origin of the 
> Latin term is not certain).
>
> The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Şıska, tedesco - 
> all derive from Proto-Germanic *şiud- / *şeud- "the people."  This 
> would be used if the Asirkans actually encountered the Germans more or 
> less peaceably through trade and actually conversed with them and knew 
> what they called themselves.  Interesting there is a medieval Latin 
> adjective _theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."
>
> So it really all depends where, when and how the Asirkans first 
> encountered Germanic peoples.
>
>
>  If the timing is right, you might consider basing the
>> name on the Goths,
>>
>
> Possible - it would be a first, but why not?
>
> [snip]
>
>
>  Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from
>> where the Romans would have met the Alemanni, it wouldn't make much 
>> sense (to me) for them to use that name.
>>
>
> Exactly - if you want Asirkans to sound plausible, they are
> not going to be using the Alemanni name.
>
>
>  If they met Germanics early enough, they might predate
>> any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms.
>>
>
> I think they would use _German-_ name only if (a) they did
> not have direct contact with the Germanic peoples, and (b)
> they had strong Latin influence.  Probably both are
> unlikely.  To take up the Slav name would be likely only if
> the Asirkans had strong connexions with Slaves and, probably,
> somewhat hostile encounters with the Germanic peoples.
>
>
> . On the other hand, the saks- name could come
>
>> from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is,
>> after all, what gives us Saxon).
>>
>
> maybe - but I'm sure the Fins and Estonians were as unaware
> of that as were the Welsh who call us English 'Saeson", i.e.
> Saxons.  It's from the tribal name, whatever its Germanic
> origin may have been.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
>

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