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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2013, Week 2

CONLANG September 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 13 Sep 2013 14:34:20 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (83 lines)

(Sorry Joerg! Yahoo screwed up the reply to again... And by the way, thank
you for clarifying / amplifying some aspects of my reply!)

Hallo conlangers!

On Friday 13 September 2013 01:06:04 Padraic Brown wrote:

> > OTOH, Yash has indicated that this is a proto-language. Proto-languages
> > often do look artificially regular thanks to the disappearance of
> > certain irregularities from all attested branches.
> 
> Indeed, though I think part of this must come from the fact that when WE
> look at proto-languages, we are looking at them / constructing them
> BACKWARDS. We don't see them as one point along a continuum so much as a
> spring whence flows all the descendent languages. Neither PIE nor
> Nostratic is anywhere close to being such a starting point. They are
> simply wayposts along the way.

Very much so.  It is a common misunderstanding that these
"proto-languages" were original languages without ancestors.
This is often found in the popular press, and partly fuelled
by the misfortunate use of the word "protolanguage" in
language origins studies for a hypothetical stage in the
evolution of Language (this is mainly Derek Bickerton's fault
- yes, the same Derek Bickerton who gave us the nonsensical
"bioprogram hypothesis").  Of course, there are creationists
who opine that languages such as Proto-Indo-European and
Proto-Uralic were among those languages that came into being
with the Confusion of Tongues at Babel.  I think it need not
be said what kind of bullshit that is.

>       Another part is our tendency to rely on
> reconstructions as if they were the real thing. PIE is *not* a real
> language. It's what scholars think is pretty close to what some real
> language might have been like.

Also correct.  They are only models of languages that are lost
in time, not the lost languages themselves.

> I had simply assumed that Yash's proto-language was not, like Charlie's
> Senjecas, The Original Language, so much as a language from some point in
> the midst of the history of those wandering nomadic barbarians he
> mentions.

At least, this is what I understand it to be like, too.  The
language of a prehistoric culture (quite similar to the
mainstream view of the Proto-Indo-Europeans) in a particular
conworld which has a number of descendants to be worked out,
not The Original Language of that conworld.
  
> If we look at a proto-language from the perspective of its own speakers, we
> see that it has antecedents and could very well evolve into descendants.
> If it survives the rigors of civilisation!

Very certainly so.  PIE was about 5,000 to 6,000 years before
our time (OK, there are people who'd like to add a few thousand
years to this figure, but even that doesn't matter much as it
doesn't change the argument), while it is pretty certain that
human beings have been using full-fledged languages (and not
"protolanguages" in the Bickertonian sense) for about 20 times
as long if not longer.

> > If the original immigrants were small in number, but
> > derived from an alliance of even smaller groups, one could get a highly
> > regular language.
> 
> I suppose like a creole. Only Yash can answer these kinds of questions.

Yep.

> > Or, if the case endings were recently derived from clitics/particles,
> > there could be a high degree of regularity. I am interested to see how
> > irregularities develop in the daughter languages
> 
> As am I.

And I.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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