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CONLANG  October 2013, Week 2

CONLANG October 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Melin's Swedish Shorthand -- for English! (was: Re: Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter)

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:38:02 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (233 lines)

2013-10-10 23:26, J. 'Mach' Wust skrev:
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:40:13 +0200, BPJ wrote:
>
>> 2013-10-01 18:45, J. 'Mach' Wust skrev:
> ...
>>> Melin's Swedish Shorthand seems an unusual member of the Gabelsberger
>>> shorthand systems family in having almost no contrast in stroke
>>> thickness at all.
>>
>> Notionally thickness/pressure is used to indicate double/long
>> consonants -- thats why W, whick is called "dubbel-v" in Swedish
>> and before the modern advent of numerous English loans was only
>> an allograph mainly used in proper names, is a thick V -- but
>> that distinction is in practice mostly omitted as its low
>> functional load is mostly compensated for by context.
>
> Right, I could have seen Melin's use of thickness in the Wikipedia
> sample image.

IMO Melin's W = VV is a sloppy kludge, albeit an understandable
one since _w_ was merely an allograph in Swedish. There actually
is one word with /vː/: _vovve_ 'doggie', and in western/southern
accents _huvud_ 'head' is /ˈhɵvːɛ/ or /ˈhɞvvɛ/ (from Old Sw.
forms like the dative sg. or gen. plural, which had a syncopated
stem /hovð-/, which then spread to the definite nom./acc. of both
numbers _hofw(u)dhit, hofw(u)dhin_).

> The Stolze-Schrey system also marks double consonants,
> but by using a third height (quadruple-height, by your counting) of
> consonant signs. The Deutsche Einheitskurzschrift simply omits
> consonant doubling. While this is kind of adequate to standard German
> phonology, it means not marking (leaving up to context) the
> distinction between "checked" and "free" vowels.

Swedish is a bit different in that it actually has geminate
consonants, although it is similar in that stressed vowels before
a same-morpheme consonant cluster, including geminates, are
short, while stressed vowels in an open syllable or in a syllable
ending in a single consonant are long, while stressed vowels
before a consonant and a morpheme boundary followed by a
consonant (VC#C) vary lexically, lectally and depending on which
morphemes are involved. Thus vowel length depends on stress and
syllable- and morpheme structure. There are Swedish speakers who
perceive vowel length as phonemic, but I don't think I ever had,
since my Dialect1 has a lot of alternation of length in the same
root when consonantal endings are added. Also my accent has little 
or no
qualitative difference between short and long stressed vowels.
Of course the reason checked vowels are 'indicated' by double
following consonant letters in most Germanic languages is that
they all had a system like the Swedish/Norwegian/Icelandic at some
time!

> ...
>> Thus St. Swedish _mossa_ /ˈmos:a/ 'moss' is /ˈmɞːsɑ/
>> to me in dialectal mode (I code-switch a lot!) and _fågel_
>> /ˈfoːgel/ 'bird' is /ˈfɞːgɛl/ to me -- and to some west Swedes
>> it's even /ˈfɵgːɛl/ --, sometimes written _môsa, fôgel/fûggel_
>> when writing dialect.
>
> The shift of length from the vowel to the consonant between /ˈfɞːgɛl/
> and /ˈfɵgːɛl/ is a very interesting phenomenon. Is this regular with
> all long vowels?

Sort of. _Mossa_ was _mŏsa_ and _fågel_ was _fŭgl > fŭgel_ in
Old Swedish, thus _mosa_ had and _fugl_ came to have a short
stressed vowel followed by a single consonant. Around 1300 all
such words were 'normalized' by either lengthening the vowel or
geminating the consonant, and different dialects 'chose'
differently for different words; moreover the vowel was
frequently lowered, especially _ĭ > ē_ and less frequently
_ŭ > ō_, _y̆ > ø̄_ etc. An odd example is _vĭka_ 'week' which
became /vekka/ in St. Sw. but is/was /vikka/ or /veːka/ in most
dialects. At the same time 'overlong' V:C: had either the vowel
shortened and VCC had the vowel shortened, so that in modern
Swedish and Norwegian all stressed syllables are long and all
fully unstressed syllables are short unless they have a
consonant cluster.

>
>> It was certainly no coincidence that the
>> westerner Melin included an enlarged Ö, officially for the prefix
>> "över-" 'over-', in his system!
>>
>> I'll see if I get the time and the tech to do a writeup of my
>> adaptation to English. I haven't given up the hope! For a short
>> summary in longhand (as you can see it is geared towards making
>> etymologically related words -- both between Swedish/English/Latin
>> and within English -- look similar as well as phonemic accuracy,
>> please refer to <http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Werling_Melin>!):
>>
>> Swedish            English  Phoneme(s)
>> ------------------ -------- --------------------
>> V                  W        /w/
>> B                  V        /v/
>> Br                 B        /b/
>> Fr                 Wh       /ʍ/
>> J                  Y        /j/
>> Sj                 J        /dʒ/
>> Tj                 Ch       /tʃ/
>> Z                  Zh[^Zh]  /ʒ/, /ʒə/
>> X                  Sh       /ʃ/
>> XX  (enlarged X)   Shr/Nsh  /nʃ/, /ʃr/
>> Ns                 Z        /z/
>> Ande               Nz[^Nz]  /nz/
>> Ende               Ns       /ns/
>> De  (T-height B)   Th       /θ/, /ð/
>> Nde (T-height X)   Thr/Nth  /nθ/, /θr/, /ðr/
>> Hr  (H-height Tv)  Thw      /θw/
>> A                  A        /æ/, /ɑ/
>> Ö                  Ae       /eɪ/
>> E                  E        /ɛ/
>> Ä                  Ee       /i/
>> I                  I        /ɪ/
>> Isk (enlarged I)   Ie       /aɪ/
>> O                  O        /ɒ/, /ɔ/, /ɑ/[^O]
>> Å                  Oe       /oʊ/
>> U                  U        /ʌ/
>> Y                  Oo       /u/, /ʊ/
>> Över (enlarged Ö)  Ow       /aʊ/
>> JY                 YOo      /ju/
>> OJ                 OY[^Oy]  /ɔɪ/
>> A, E, O, U, R               /ə/[^Schwa]
> ...
>
> That is a very elaborate system. You have given the adaptation of
> shorthand to English much more thought than I have, seldom using an
> adaptation to English. In fact, I do not write in stenography on a
> regular basis. An adaptation of English I have used employs largely
> the same signs for analogous sounds (German/English: w/w, j/y,
> sch/sh, st/st, schm/sm, schw/sw, tsch/ch, schn/sn). Other are used in
> a looser analogy (German/English: z/th, kn/sk [both have a velar
> component], pf/v, zw/tw [etymologically correct, by coincidence]).
> The sign for German x (or gs) is used for English j, without any
> reasonable analogy. German x is a surplus letter that is not really
> required but is already arbitrarily chosen.

My X > Sh is of course a bit of a kludge, and Ö > Ae is even more so,
the odd men out really!  My mnemonic is that the cognate of _great_
happens to exist as _gröt-_ in some Swedish place names
(Gmc. *au > OE. ēa O. Sw. ø̄ is of course regular!) I have to
console myself with that the sign looks 'like an E/Ee with an A
in the middle'.
>
> My vowels signs are quite deficient, since initially and medially, I
> distinguish only four vowels: Front high, front low, back high, and
> back low. In hiat or final position, the letters for y w h are used
> as matres lectionis so distinctiveness in these positions is better.
> Occasionally, I use a system of diacritics that allow for a phonemic
> transcription.

I of course use diacritics sometimes for the multivalent signs.
In some cases I use different spellings of whole words, like
MONth _month_ vs. MOTHER _mother_, while other _-ther_ words
use the Thr sign.
>
> A description of my English usage is still online:
> http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/description/

I remember looking at this years ago!

BTW I forgot to mention that I use Fr for Pf when writing German,
but you may have guessed that! _Pfeil_ at least becomes reminicent
of _pil_.

>
> ---------
>
> On Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:07:47 +0200, BPJ wrote:
>
>
> Melin's way of using the connecting upstroke as real vowel letters
> may well be more natural and practical than Faulmann's system. I will
> not learn it, though, until after I have learnt Gregg's shorthand.
> This system has always intrigued me as the most elegant of Western
> shorthand systems.

It certainly feels more natural once you've learned it, but has the
downside that consonant signs other than the first in each word
are written above or below the baseline depending on the height of the
preceding vowel.  The resulting _klättereffekter_ ('climbing effects')
can be bothersome, but are counterbalanced by breaking longer 
compounds
(but with a smaller space than inter-word space between the parts!)
The word _överläkarvikarie_ 'stand-in chief physician' is proverbial,
but in practice it's abbreviated to ÖverLKVIK.

>
> ...
>> It all showed me that Melin's choices were quite good:
>>
>> *   Consonants with similar PoA and MoA have similar signs:
>>      -   Most sonorants -- the most frequent -- are dots or rings,
>>      -   The most frequent suffix consonants are rings/dots or low
>>          ('half-grade' T and De) stems, and //g// in _-ig_ is
>>          usually silent, and thus not written,
>>      -   All labials have a rightward bend or a rightward
>>          bowl, or both!
>
> With the exception of b?

Yes of course! But it's easily overlooked because B is to V what P 
is to F.

>
>>      -   All dentals which are not rings/dots have a leftward bowl
>>          or a leftward loop for the clusters,
>
> The regular formation of the consonant+T clusters is a nice solution.
> The German systems use a triple-height upwards stroke -- and drop the
> +T in "Eilschrift".

Final _-t_ is important in Swedish as it is the neuter singular
adjective ending, adverb ending and supine ending. BTW many use
special wide versions of D, T, St, J etc. for Nd Nt Nst, Nj etc.
after E and Ä instead of the backwardsleaning signs.

>
>>      -   All velars have a rightward loop, and the single glottal
>>          H, has a leftward loop,
>>      -   The two palatals have a leftward bowl *and* a leftward
>>          loop, indicating their position between the dentals
>>          and velars,
>>      -   All the triple-height consonants are clusters -- Ng, Sj,
>>          Tj did at least develop from clusters, and are digraphs
>>          in longhand!
>>      -   All S+Consonant(onsonant) clusters are triple-height
>>          versions of the corresponding C,
>
> That is indeed very elegant.

Yes, it's actually very featural!

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August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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