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CONLANG  October 2013, Week 2

CONLANG October 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Melin's Swedish Shorthand -- for English! (was: Re: Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorter)

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 10 Oct 2013 17:26:43 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (195 lines)

On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:40:13 +0200, BPJ wrote:

>2013-10-01 18:45, J. 'Mach' Wust skrev:
...
>> Melin's Swedish Shorthand seems an unusual member of the Gabelsberger
>> shorthand systems family in having almost no contrast in stroke
>> thickness at all.
>
>Notionally thickness/pressure is used to indicate double/long
>consonants -- thats why W, whick is called "dubbel-v" in Swedish
>and before the modern advent of numerous English loans was only
>an allograph mainly used in proper names, is a thick V -- but
>that distinction is in practice mostly omitted as its low
>functional load is mostly compensated for by context.

Right, I could have seen Melin's use of thickness in the Wikipedia
sample image. The Stolze-Schrey system also marks double consonants,
but by using a third height (quadruple-height, by your counting) of
consonant signs. The Deutsche Einheitskurzschrift simply omits
consonant doubling. While this is kind of adequate to standard German
phonology, it means not marking (leaving up to context) the
distinction between "checked" and "free" vowels.

...
>Thus St. Swedish _mossa_ /ˈmos:a/ 'moss' is /ˈmɞːsɑ/
>to me in dialectal mode (I code-switch a lot!) and _fågel_
>/ˈfoːgel/ 'bird' is /ˈfɞːgɛl/ to me -- and to some west Swedes
>it's even /ˈfɵgːɛl/ --, sometimes written _môsa, fôgel/fûggel_
>when writing dialect.

The shift of length from the vowel to the consonant between /ˈfɞːgɛl/
and /ˈfɵgːɛl/ is a very interesting phenomenon. Is this regular with
all long vowels?

>It was certainly no coincidence that the
>westerner Melin included an enlarged Ö, officially for the prefix
>"över-" 'over-', in his system!
>
>I'll see if I get the time and the tech to do a writeup of my
>adaptation to English. I haven't given up the hope! For a short
>summary in longhand (as you can see it is geared towards making
>etymologically related words -- both between Swedish/English/Latin
>and within English -- look similar as well as phonemic accuracy,
>please refer to <http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Werling_Melin>!):
>
>Swedish            English  Phoneme(s)
>------------------ -------- --------------------
>V                  W        /w/
>B                  V        /v/
>Br                 B        /b/
>Fr                 Wh       /ʍ/
>J                  Y        /j/
>Sj                 J        /dʒ/
>Tj                 Ch       /tʃ/
>Z                  Zh[^Zh]  /ʒ/, /ʒə/
>X                  Sh       /ʃ/
>XX  (enlarged X)   Shr/Nsh  /nʃ/, /ʃr/
>Ns                 Z        /z/
>Ande               Nz[^Nz]  /nz/
>Ende               Ns       /ns/
>De  (T-height B)   Th       /θ/, /ð/
>Nde (T-height X)   Thr/Nth  /nθ/, /θr/, /ðr/
>Hr  (H-height Tv)  Thw      /θw/
>A                  A        /æ/, /ɑ/
>Ö                  Ae       /eɪ/
>E                  E        /ɛ/
>Ä                  Ee       /i/
>I                  I        /ɪ/
>Isk (enlarged I)   Ie       /aɪ/
>O                  O        /ɒ/, /ɔ/, /ɑ/[^O]
>Å                  Oe       /oʊ/
>U                  U        /ʌ/
>Y                  Oo       /u/, /ʊ/
>Över (enlarged Ö)  Ow       /aʊ/
>JY                 YOo      /ju/
>OJ                 OY[^Oy]  /ɔɪ/
>A, E, O, U, R               /ə/[^Schwa]
...

That is a very elaborate system. You have given the adaptation of
shorthand to English much more thought than I have, seldom using an
adaptation to English. In fact, I do not write in stenography on a
regular basis. An adaptation of English I have used employs largely
the same signs for analogous sounds (German/English: w/w, j/y,
sch/sh, st/st, schm/sm, schw/sw, tsch/ch, schn/sn). Other are used in
a looser analogy (German/English: z/th, kn/sk [both have a velar
component], pf/v, zw/tw [etymologically correct, by coincidence]).
The sign for German x (or gs) is used for English j, without any
reasonable analogy. German x is a surplus letter that is not really
required but is already arbitrarily chosen.

My vowels signs are quite deficient, since initially and medially, I
distinguish only four vowels: Front high, front low, back high, and
back low. In hiat or final position, the letters for y w h are used
as matres lectionis so distinctiveness in these positions is better.
Occasionally, I use a system of diacritics that allow for a phonemic
transcription.

A description of my English usage is still online:
http://tengwar.lima-city.de/calligraphizable_stenography/description/

---------

On Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:07:47 +0200, BPJ wrote:

>2013-10-03 23:34, J. 'Mach' Wust skrev:
>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 13:40:13 +0200, BPJ wrote:
>>
>>> 2013-10-01 18:45, J. 'Mach' Wust skrev:
>>
>>>> The vowels' representation is different from the
>>>> Faulmann system that is used in the more modern German systems (like
>>>> Stolze-Schrey or deutsche Einheitskurzschrift) which operate with the
>>>> script's baseline (which can be kept, raised or lowered). It yields a
>>>> very similar overall aspect, though. I wonder whether Melin came up
>>>> with his system independently form the Faulman system.
>>>
>>> He got the idea from Arends' system, but the implementation is his
>>> own.
>>> I've looked in vain for an illustration of Arends' system, including
>>> looking through my several binders and folders of photocopies,
>>> knowing that
>>> I used to have something, but the general principle is well
>>> _described_
>>> at <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Arends>
>>
>> Thanks for the hint. Indeed, the similarity is obvious. Here is a
>> picture:
>>
>> http://fotogalerie.herr-der-ringe-film.de/data/7977/arends.png
>>
>> There is one big difference, though: In Arends' system, the lower end
>> of the consonant signs is not significative for the consonants
>> themselves, but is a part of the following vowel.
>>
>
>I know. In fact I used to experiment with both schemes when
>dabbling as a shorthand constructor and I must say that I prefer
>Melin's solution.

I think Melin's solutin is closer to the Faulmann system as in
Stolze-Schrey or in the Deutsche Einheitskurzschrift, with two
different lengths (sometimes three, but very close connection is only
used for indicating vowelless yuxtaposition and is always
same-height) and three different heights. However, the shape of the
connecting upstroke may vary since the height distinction is not a
feature of the connecting upstroke itself (as in Melin's system), but
of the difference in height between the preceding and the following
consonant's groundline. A third feature that contributes to vowel
distinctions is the thickness of the following consonant, so there
are 2 × 3 × 2 = 12 different vowel signs.

Melin's way of using the connecting upstroke as real vowel letters
may well be more natural and practical than Faulmann's system. I will
not learn it, though, until after I have learnt Gregg's shorthand.
This system has always intrigued me as the most elegant of Western
shorthand systems.

...
>It all showed me that Melin's choices were quite good:
>
>*   Consonants with similar PoA and MoA have similar signs:
>     -   Most sonorants -- the most frequent -- are dots or rings,
>     -   The most frequent suffix consonants are rings/dots or low
>         ('half-grade' T and De) stems, and //g// in _-ig_ is
>         usually silent, and thus not written,
>     -   All labials have a rightward bend or a rightward
>         bowl, or both!

With the exception of b?

>     -   All dentals which are not rings/dots have a leftward bowl
>         or a leftward loop for the clusters,

The regular formation of the consonant+T clusters is a nice solution.
The German systems use a triple-height upwards stroke -- and drop the
+T in "Eilschrift".

>     -   All velars have a rightward loop, and the single glottal
>         H, has a leftward loop,
>     -   The two palatals have a leftward bowl *and* a leftward
>         loop, indicating their position between the dentals
>         and velars,
>     -   All the triple-height consonants are clusters -- Ng, Sj,
>         Tj did at least develop from clusters, and are digraphs
>         in longhand!
>     -   All S+Consonant(onsonant) clusters are triple-height
>         versions of the corresponding C,

That is indeed very elegant.

-- 
grüess
mach

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November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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