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CONLANG  October 2013, Week 4

CONLANG October 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: How to evaluate a conlang (was: Re: How to present a conlang?)

From:

Herman Miller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 27 Oct 2013 18:13:14 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

On 10/26/2013 10:57 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:
> Emil wrote:
>
>> Padraic's remarks suggest to me that a language as an artistic product can be
>> judged independently of real-world considerations.
> To a certain extent, I'd certainly agree with that. As a piece of art, a conlang
> does not háve to be fully functional in order to be a good piece of art. Any
> more than Dali's pocket watch has to be fully functional in order for Persistence
> of Memory to be a good piece of art.

I think to some extent that depends on how you're defining "fully 
functional". Klingon is functional enough for the needs of Star Trek 
writers to write dialogue for Klingons. (Maybe they get Marc Okrand to 
translate all the Klingon lines, I don't know. But in principle they 
have what they need to do it on their own.) Tirelat and Jarda are 
functional enough for me to use in translation relays, but the 
documentation isn't good enough for someone else to translate something 
into one of those languages.

> Conlangs, especially the artistic ones, the ones that are part of some larger
> work of art, need not be judged according to primary world considerations.
>
>> It seems to me that there are two routes to appreciating such an
>> art-form. Both require a significant investment of time and
>> effort up-front. First, one might attempt to learn the language
>> fluently, which would give one a much deeper insight into it, but would
>> be largely a one-shot deal.
>
> Significant investment, yes. But one that some people are in fact willing to make.
> I think some folks here in the past have discussed their relationships with others
> who decided to experience the art in just this way.
>
> For what it's worth, I think this is probably about the best way to properly
> experience conlang as art. As we all know, languages are integral parts of their
> cultures, their speakers' mindsets and worldviews. The keen experiencer of this
> art will be someone so curious about a language that he will learn it, internalise
> the culture that goes with it and become intimately familiar with its turns of
> phrase and modes of thinking. This kind of art experiencer would, in reality, expend
> no more energy than someone who plans on living in another country and is undergoing
> cultural and linguistic immersion.
>
> There are people who do this on a regular basis (Foreign Service workers, e.g.), and
> so I don't think it must necessarily be a one time shot! I think the only draw back
> to this kind of art experience is that, chances are good, the artwork itself -- the
> conlang -- is probably not well enough developed for the experiencer to get much out
> of the experience!

Well, a background for the conculture is certainly important for many 
conlangs, but I don't think you need that to evaluate the conlang itself 
as a conlang. I haven't been fluent in any conlangs (even my own). 
Actually, if I'm trying to avoid too much influence from English, I 
don't even try to approach fluency. I take more time to try the various 
options and pick the best word or expression for the language.

> That said, I think for móst people, just letting
> it roll through their unconscious is enough -- hear it when it's spoken (or sung),
> read it when it's on a page. Intuitively integrate it within your overall experience
> of the whole work.
>
>> Second, one might attempt to learn about
>> linguistics, and through that study, combined with exercises like
>> translations, come to a general appreciation of languages as art-form.
>
> This is certainly a valid (though I think, in some ways, far more sterile) way of
> going about it. This is like the person who has heard of the Brandenburg Concertos
> and decides, rather than just buying a CD, goes and takes a masters in classical
> music and composition in order to appreciate the music from the inside out. To me,
> this is a more clinical approach: more of a "brain approach" rather than a "heart
> approach".

I think you need both, especially with something as complex as a 
language. You miss the details if you don't understand how languages are 
put together. Even if you think of conlangs as a kind of music, just 
sounds strung together, it helps to understand how they work. Conlangers 
need linguistics in the same way that artists need to know anatomy. (Not 
to the extent that physicians need to know anatomy!)

But you don't need theory to know that this is one of the best solos 
ever in the history of music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzY3tFTz9k

>> Dirk says that testing a language, if it is to be like testing a
>> bridge, is a practical impossibility.
>
> Well, a bridge is really only tested on opening day when you allow zillions of cars
> and trucks to drive over it. Likewise, a language is only tested when people learn
> it and use it. For practical purposes, yes, I think it is very unlikely that a
> conlang will be so tested. But on the other hand, this kind of testing really doesn't
> tell us anything. It would certainly tell us whether the conlanger did a good job of
> creating a usable language. Ho-hum. Unless his góal was to produce a usable language,
> the testing is pointless. It might be marginally interesting to an artistic conlanger
> to know that he's created something useful; but I think he'd be more interested in
> learning how others reacted to its artistry. Were they moved by its beauty or turned
> away by its harshness? Did it add to or take away from their experience of his broader
> work (a novel, a play, a song)? How did fit into that work, in the perception of the
> experiencer? I.e., did he hit his mark, or did he shoot himself in the foot?

Well, it might be useful information if a language passes such a test, 
but if it fails, all you know is that the language isn't suited for the 
users who tried to use it. That doesn't tell you whether the fault is 
with the language, the learners, or the instruction method.

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