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CONLANG  November 2013, Week 3

CONLANG November 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The one word that's the same in any language...

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 17 Nov 2013 08:37:28 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (85 lines)

On 17/11/2013 00:21, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 16 November 2013 02:11, Herman Miller wrote:
[snip]
>> From the image in Table 1, Dutch is [hɜ↗], so I guess
>> they tried to scale down a “3” and failed. The Duna
>> and Yélî Dnye examples look like [ɛ̀ː↗] and [ɛ̀↗].
>> French also looks like [ɛ̀↗] and German is [hɛ̀↗] ...
>> maybe those ɛ’s with an indistinct mark over them are
>> supposed to be nasalized [ɛ̃].
>
> That'd make sense in French, where the word is indeed
> /ɛ̃/, usually written "hein" (silent 'h', common in
> interjections). The intonation is also right.

"hein" - wow, that takes me back some 60 years or so   :)

I remember encountering that word when we were learning
French at school.   It seem to equate to the (British)
English "eh", tho I got the impression it was more widely
used in French than "eh" in English.

I looked through the article for English "eh" used this way,
but I couldn't find it.  Nor, I think, is it plausible to
regard British "eh" as a dialect variant of "huh" because my
dialect of English does have "huh"; but it is used to
express disgust or disbelief.

If I say something and my addressee replies "eh", then I
understand that to me "I didn't quite catch that.  could you
say it again."  But if s/he replies "huh" I would understand
it to mean "I don't think so!"   That's why when I first
encountered "huh?" in the USA I misunderstood at first - but
I've sort of got used to it since     :)

> Notice, though, that as a child, I was always corrected
> when I used it: "on dit pas 'hein ?', on dit 'comment
> ?'": "we don't say 'huh?', we say 'how?'" (yes, 'how',
> not 'what'. Using "quoi ?" is also considered impolite).

Like "what?" in English   ;)

The 'polite' thing is "pardon" - but I mostly hear "what?"

>> In any case there’s that Zapotec [aj↗]. I don’t think
>> they all count as “the same” by any means.
>>
> Indeed. It's "the same" for a very weird definition of
> "same".

Indeed!     ;)

>> What they’ve actually found is an absence of high,
>> back, or rounded vowels in their sample, which is an
>> interesting result, but not as significant as what was
>> claimed.

I agree.
[snip]

> On 16 November 2013 10:51, Siva Kalyan wrote:
>
>> However, the article does suggest that the vowel in
>> the huh? word tends to be the most frequently attested
>>  vowel in the language; p. 7 cites evidence that this
>> is the case for Spanish (¿e?). Frequency can of course
>> be defined cross-linguistically.
>>
> Fails for French already. [ɛ̃] is far from the most
> frequent vowel in the language.

Yep - and I'm far from convinced by the other examples in
the article.

My impression is that they formed a theory early on and then
tried to fit the 'evidence' to the theory.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
If /ni/ can change into /ɑ/, then practically
anything can change into anything.
[YUEN REN CHAO]

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