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CONLANG  December 2013, Week 3

CONLANG December 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Numbers, Counting, and Arithmetic

From:

Zach Wellstood <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:18:04 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (126 lines)

==
Unless you mean 16=(5*3)+1, but I had thought you were using "with" to
represent addition, since above 8 is rendered "it is 5 with 3"
==
The English translation probably isn't the best, I was just translating it
literally. It's actually "three and one" where three is the multiplier and
one is added.

==
First off, multiplication is just a shortcut to addition, so that 5*3 is
the same as 5+5+5, "add 5 to itself 3 times," or "repeat 5 thrice." There's
no rule that says a language has to use a parallel shortcut (if there was,
we'd break it).
==

That's a potential area for exploration!



rulalí 'aa! · 身先朝路 - 画龙点睛 · portfolio <http://zwelldesigns.com>


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Virginia Keys <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:44:40 -0500, Zach Wellstood <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >liyaá"!
> >
> >I've finally mustered up the courage to tackle a domain which I personally
> >am not very skilled in, and which łaá siri has lacked for quite a while:
> >math! I'm emailing the list to share and get feedback, also to ask for
> >input about multiplication.
> >
> >łaá siri operates on base-5. Numerals are verbs which must be fully
> >conjugated and mean "it is in a quantity of x." So for instance:
> >
> >laalár = 5 (lit "it is a quantity of five")
> >
> >And to show how they conjugate:  if I'm counting these graham crackers I
> >have right next to me and there are 5 of them:
> >
> >lulár = [these] 5 (lit, "these right here are a quantity of five")
> >
> >So that's fairly straightforward, though I don't know of any natlang
> >precedents. Now when adding, I've devised a system whereby the base (a
> >multiple of 5: 5, 25, 125, 625, etc.) is inflected as a verb with an
> >additional applicative morpheme, and the quantity by which the base is
> >added is expressed as a noun in the instrumental.
> >
> >Abbreviations:
> >INAN = inanimate inflection
> >INSTR = instrumental
> >ABSTR = abstract proximity (not important for this)
> >IMMED = immediate proximity (not important for this)
> >APPLIC = applicative
> >DIR = direct evidential
> >
> >So if I have 8 graham crackers now:
> >
> >latłalayaa tłar lu'alár.
> >three-INAN INSTR ABSTR-IMMED-APPLIC-be.five.DIR
> >= 8 (lit, "it is five with three")
> >
> >My goal is to create a system which fits into my vision of łaá siri, but
> >also uses morphology and paradigms which I already have available. So
> >deriving an inflected noun in the instrumental is fairly transparent and
> >(to me) sensible for this system.
> >
> >Now we have an issue with multiplication. Right now I have a temporary
> >system/idea in the works where everything's basically the same, you just
> >add the multiplier and add "and" to the phrase. It works like this:
> >[multiplier] [addition]=and [base]:
> >
> >(again using all the same morphology)
> >latłalayaá sayalayaa'i tłar lu'alár.
> >three-INAN one-INAN=and INSTR ABSTR-IMM-APPLIC-be.five.DIR
> >= 16 (lit, "it is five with three and one")
> >
>
> and one? last time I checked 16=(5+3)*2
> Unless you mean 16=(5*3)+1, but I had thought you were using "with" to
> represent addition, since above 8 is rendered "it is 5 with 3"
>
>
> >To be honest, I like how this works, but it means that large integers
> >require many embedded clauses (not even phrases, full clauses!).
> >
>
> So then the ideal would be to have something similar, but more
> compact/easier to express.
>
>
> >Like, for instance, 95 (graham crackers to keep the morphology the same):
> >
> >[latłalayaá [tłulayaa’í tłar lu'alar’í] tłar] lu'alilár
> >three-INAN four-INAN=and INSTR ABSTR-IMM-APPLIC-be.five.DIR=and INSTR
> >ABSTR-IMM-APPLIC-be.25.DIR
> >= 95 (lit, "it is 25 with 3 and 5 with 4" ~ 25 x 3 + 5 x 4)
>
> >
> >It is definitely unwieldy (I still don't know how to say 465) and could
> use
> >refining, but this is the idea I have been working with for the last few
> >hours. Any ideas, natlang/conlang precedents, or comments?
> >
>
> 465 translated into base 5 would be 3330, or (125*3)+(25*3)+(5*3)+(1*0),
> but I suspect you were referring to how to express that in your conlang.
>
> First off, multiplication is just a shortcut to addition, so that 5*3 is
> the same as 5+5+5, "add 5 to itself 3 times," or "repeat 5 thrice." There's
> no rule that says a language has to use a parallel shortcut (if there was,
> we'd break it).
>
> Second, it sounds like the difficulty is coming from making each digit its
> own clause, which works fine for smaller numbers, but large numbers become
> increasingly difficult to express.
>
> I'm afraid I don't have much advice for what to do about it.So far I
> haven't gotten my own conlangs very far past phonology+orthography+short
> vocab list.... If none of this was helpful, then just ignore me... XD
>
> --Virginia
>

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