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CONLANG  December 2013, Week 3

CONLANG December 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Ṫirdonic and Her Daughters

From:

Cosman246 <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 21 Dec 2013 06:15:01 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

Thank you very much, Alex. This is exactly what I needed

Yash Tulsyan


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 9:12 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:29:45 -0800, Cosman246 <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Conlangers,
> >
> >For those unacquainted, here is Ṫirdonic:
> >http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
> >
> >It is incredibly regular (a fault I'm trying to fix right now), as it is
> >meant to be a reconstructed proto-language. I'm trying right now to form
> >some daughter languages. I do know the basics of historical linguistics,
> >having taken a class on it (specifically, on the development of German
> >taught by a Dr. Joseph Voyles) Does anyone have suggestions for reading
> >about modelling sound changes and other sorts of changes, or helpful tools
> >(Zompist's Sounds comes to mind, but it uses ASCII...)?
>
> Forgive me for giving some concrete thoughts about what might be done with
> Thirdonic, rather than abstract discussions.  I'm mostly not sure what good
> resources exist, in the large; I've picked up what I know from the list and
> from reading papers and whatnot, rather than an easy-to-point-to-text.  But
> one nice book I tripped over a few months ago for sound change is Kümmel's
> _Konsonantenwandel: Bausteine zu einer Typologie des Lautwandels und ihre
> Konsequenzen für die vergleichende Rekonstruktion_.
>
> So, an overall suggestion: remember that the early changes to Thirdonic
> should be shared amongst several of the daughters (though perhaps to
> different extents).  One imagines the Thirdonic family will have begun to
> diversify as dialects of the same language before mutual intelligibility
> between the dialects was lost; the first sound changes will have occurred
> in this still-diversifying environment, and spread among the
> not-yet-separated daughters.
>
> I suggested several things to de-artificialise the morphology in your last
> thread.  For most of those, if you don't actually adopt them into the
> ("reconstructed") protolanguage, I expect they'd occur as changes on the
> way to the daughter languages anyway.
>
> Bear semantic change in mind.  I don't know if the short unelaborated
> glosses in your Thirdonic documentation are intentionally so because, you
> imagine, more precision can't be reconstructed; that's fine, but do try to
> use better glosses for the "attested" daughterlangs at least.
>
> As for phonology, some first thoughts:
>
> * Voiced aspirates are unstable.  They're probably less unstable when
> voiceless aspirates are present, which (unlike PIE) Thirdonic has, but they
> are even so.  The two main types of (proximal) developments of voiced
> aspirates are to modal voiced segments or to voiceless aspirates.
>  Breathiness lowers the pitch of the voice, so voiced aspirates can also
> leave a lowered tone behind when they change (especially if tone is already
> contrastive).  Or, if voiced aspirates are retained, they could do things
> like develop to [h\] in weak positions (as happened in Indic).
>
> If you want to avoid mergers among the four consonant series, a few
> options would be
> - preserving the former contrast by the introduction of tone, as above
> - the shift of [b_h b] to [b b_k] or [b b_<] (and parallelly for the other
> places of articulation)
> - I can't quite cite precedent for the latter half of this, but structural
> parallellism would seem to suggest that if the voiceless aspirates go to
> affricates or fricatives, so could the voiced ones.  Or you could try [p
> p_h b b_h] > [p (p)f b p_h] (and parallelly) or similar.
>
> * [h] will tend to be quick to disappear; if not [h] and [x] could well
> fall together (and the result could later disappear anyway).  In the coda
> you could have compensatory lengthening or stuff like that (though this is
> more common if length is already distinctive).
>
> * In Indo-European the resonant consonants survived fairly well, but I
> suspect this was helped by their phonotactics, which might be slightly less
> of a preservative force in Thirdonic.  Even so, in IE prevocalic [j w]
> often disappeared or hardened to obstruents, which could happen here too;
> nonprevocalic [j w] are less likely to harden, but they're very likely to
> cause vowel colouring and perhaps disappear (via diphthongs).
>  Consonant+[j] is of course ripe for palatalisation.  Your lexicon has lots
> of velar+[w]; these may remain, being seen as phonologically unitary
> labiovelars, while something else happens to the other [w]s.
>
> * As for the vowels, if <u> is in fact [u\] (and <a> [A]) as your
> romanisation chart suggests, then this [u\] can be expected to develop to
> [1] or [y] or [i] relatively readily.  (If it merges with [i] this will nòt
> tend to chain-shift out of the way.)  This leaves a gap at [u] which will
> want to be filled.  If Vw diphthongs or other sequences involving vowels
> and [w] were common enough (as perhaps they might be after some consonant
> lenition, e.g.), they might serve to provide a new [u]; otherwise you could
> do [o] > [u] (conditional or unconditional).
>
> * Complex onsets other than consonant+sonorant seem rare in your
> vocabulary, so these might well simplify away in various ways (usually loss
> of one of the consonants, though perhaps epenthesis, or conversion to a
> kind of onset cluster which is retained).  In general, if some combination
> which your phonotactics allows is under-exploited, a plausible development
> is that the few examples of it will be eliminated by some change tightening
> up the phonotactic restrictions.
>
> * It's not uncommon ttbomk for a new stress system to just outright
> replace an old one.  But the Thirdonic lexical stress could leave traces,
> especially if it is realised as a stress accent.  Most likely are various
> kinds of reduction (centralisation, loss, ...) of unstressed vowels; or
> conversely, if there are any "un-reduction" changes (peripheralisation,
> lengthening, breaking, ...) these may well happen only to stressed vowels.
>  Occasionally consonant changes will reflect the position of the stress
> too, with consonants next to the stress coming through "stronger" (e.g.
> Verner's law in Germanic, or one of the Finnic consonant gradations).
>
> Alex
>

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