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AUXLANG  December 2013, Week 4

AUXLANG December 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Any Hope for Anything but Esperanto?

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:18:47 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

Stephen Rice skrev 2013-12-22 05:37:
> On 12/20/13, Paul Bartlett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I was looking back at a number of the posts in this thread, and I noticed
>> this one again.
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:23:27 -0500, Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/17/13, Paul Bartlett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My point is not whether Esperanto is or is not a good language,
>>>> considered
>>>> on its own or in comparison to any other languages, natural or
>>>> constructed. The point I was bringing up is whether *any* other
>>>> constructed auxiliary language but Esperanto -- regardless of what we
>>>> think of it -- has any prospect for long term widespread success.
>>> Theoretically, an at-sight project could work, though the existing
>>> ones are flawed. Interlingua has orthographic problems (though they
>>> can largely be corrected) and forms distorted by prototyping;
>>> [remainder trimmed for brevity]
>> This brings back the point I made recently: one man's meat is another
>> man's poison. For me personally, the orthography of (IALA) Interlingua is
>> fine. I myself would not change it. I do not consider it flawed. The
>> etymological spelling is for me a strength,
> For me too. The problem is all those people who insist on not being
> me. Like you, I grew up with a language that uses etymological
> spelling. But a lot of people didn't--native speakers of Spanish,
> Russian--Chinese, for that matter. They have no way of knowing when
> [i] is <i> or <y>, when [f] should be written <f> or <ph>. So for
> their sake, especially since it is no burden on me to always write <f>
> and <i> when I hear [f] and [i], I do so. People who use auxlangs
> should be willing to put others first.
>
> and the sometimes seemingly
>> different forms derived from the prototyping principle do not bother me
>> and seem to fit well, within the "genius" of the language.
> The problem is that they disrupt recognizability. I noticed this some
> time ago when I got a copy of the IED and began using Interlingua a
> fair amount: the forms didn't match up. Dmitry encountered this same
> problem when he decided at one point to use Interlingua forms as
> provisional international forms for LdP. For example, "develop" is
> "disveloppar," but F has "développer," S "desarrollar," I
> "sviluppare." I would follow EF with ?developar. "Man" is "homine,"
> but F "homme," S "hombre," I "uomo" (cf also E "human (being)")
> suggest something more like Occ "hom." And so on.
>
> Even the
>> official allowed collateral orthography (which has been very little used,
>> anyway) is jarring to me. But obviously, others see things quite
>> differently. I acknowledge that.
> There is a lot of subjective reaction involved.
>
>> On another forum a long time ago (if I recall correctly), someone
>> complained about the orthography of Latino sine Flexione. That person
>> thought the spelling should be reformed to fit his ideas. I pointed out
>> that LsF is a form of *LATIN*, not something else. That is its point. It
>> is a simplified form of Latin -- period. (Early LsF texts even used the
>> medieval Latin letter forms 'æ' and 'œ' [if those characters show up
>> correctly in this post].) If you want something else, do not call it
>> "Latin without inflections."
> LsF is a special case. Part of the rationale is that Latin
> dictionaries are widely available, and that implies retaining the old
> spelling to facilitate lookups. (In Inlis, on the other hand, the
> difficulty of English spelling and pronunciation and the presence of
> variations in both led me to emphasize speech over writing, though
> that obscures lookups.)
>
> Still, Risto makes some good points. I suppose it all depends on the
> nature of LsF: if it's intended as a kind of code to be used always in
> conjunction with a dictionary, the classical spelling is preferable;
> if it is to be used spontaneously, something more phonemic would be
> better. For that matter, it probably wouldn't be that hard to produce
> an app that would convert phonemic input into classical output: since
> the classical form can be converted more or less automatically to
> phonemic, all that would be needed would be to convert the headwords
> of a reasonably large Latin lexicon to phonemic spelling, while
> linking the two forms as different fields in a spreadsheet or
> database, then use search and replace to change phonemic to classical
> for lookup purposes.
>
>> In my opinion, (relatively) established (whatever that might mean) conIALs
>> ought to be taken as is. Those who wish may come up with something new,
>> run it up the flagpole, and see who salutes. A number of years ago, David
>> Stark (I think that was his name) started with the IED and came up with
>> Latino Moderne, but he did not call it "reformed Interlingua." It was a
>> new language, even though it had a similar basis. That was good. I have
>> become wary (and weary) of "reformosis," the tinkering that never stops,
>> so that the real using never begins. That is one strength the Esperantists
>> have.
> It depends on the degree of difference. I used to envision a few
> tweaks to Novial--rather modest compared to some schemes I've since
> encountered--but at this point I would restrict the modifications to
> points subtle enough to constitute a mere dialect:
>
> 1. eliminate tense shifting in indirect discourse
> 2. use the verb stem for the contextually current tense, not the
> present (which may be forced by "nun"), so tense would seldom be
> indicated by the verb
> 3. make "indefinite number" the default for substantives (the singular
> may be forced by "un" or "singli," the plural by "-s").
>
> These changes would simplify Novial and make it more accessible, but
> they probably wouldn't bother those familiar with it. They aren't
> radical.
>
> On the other hand, if I wanted to set up something like LsF, I would
> make more drastic changes and give the result a completely different
> name (perhaps Latinus Facilis, but this isn't a serious proposal):
>
> 1. use something like the conversion app mentioned above to combine
> the ease of phonemic writing with the utility of classical forms (so
> users can look up forms in regular dictionaries)
> 2. always use citation forms: homo, not homine; amo, not ama; sum, not
> es; and so on. This would simplify lookups and eliminate some homonyms
> (LsF bello > bellum or bellus), though most verbs would end in -o,
> which might produce other homonyms--I haven't really worked out the
> implications.
> 3. simplify the verb system somehow, though I haven't given that much
> thought so far.
> 4. since we wouldn't have that many forms in -e, given that we aren't
> using the ablative or 2nd/3rd conjugation stems, we may allow an
> unwritten -e to ease pronunciation of final consonant clusters (e.g.,
> rex[e], nunc[e])
>
> The result would be simpler than LsF, though not as attractive. But I
> certainly wouldn't refer to it as "reformed LsF."
>
>
Yo self prefere li simplifcat
ortografie quel es possibil usar e
in interlingua de IALA e in
Occidental/interlingue. Si yo ha
ben calculat, anglesi francesi e
partialmen nederlandesi usa li
traditional, si vu vole etymologic
ortografie, altri lingues have
modificationes. Norvegesi elimina
mem c e scri "sentral" e
"sosialisme". Yo ha un preferentie
por y in "systema" e "fysica" nam
li y ha un specific suone in
svedesi. Ma yo posse toterar
"sistema". Li avantage es que li
lingues ne es in accord pri y. In
svedesi on scri "kristall" e ne
"krystall" quo un vell expectar del
anglesi. In komunikando ego usa un
simplifikat ortografie. Ego ha mem
kogitat pri eliminar li c, ma ego
ankor ne es sert ka to e un bon idé.

Kjell R

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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 1
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