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CONLANG  December 2013, Week 4

CONLANG December 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Ṫirdonic and Her Daughters

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:05:00 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (38 lines)

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:29:45 -0800, Cosman246 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear Conlangers,
>
>For those unacquainted, here is Ṫirdonic:
>http://unnamedconworld.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/grammar2.pdf
>
>It is incredibly regular (a fault I'm trying to fix right now), as it is
>meant to be a reconstructed proto-language. I'm trying right now to form
>some daughter languages. I do know the basics of historical linguistics,
>having taken a class on it (specifically, on the development of German
>taught by a Dr. Joseph Voyles) Does anyone have suggestions for reading
>about modelling sound changes and other sorts of changes, or helpful tools
>(Zompist's Sounds comes to mind, but it uses ASCII...)?

A few other thoughts, coming to mind on looking at your grammar a second time.  

* You posit that in most of the daughters, gender markers have been added to the noun, creating multiple declensions.  I think this is very unlikely: Thirdonic words are already long, especially especially the verbs, and I don't see them getting longer in a semantically basically empty way.  Now, substantivised adjectives I would expect to keep their gender marker, and I could see a gender marker coming to be required on nouns referring to persons whose roots don't specify sex.  So you could get a subclass of nouns with the gender marker.  But this is not likely to turn into separate declensions without extremely violent sound changes, given how regular a paradigm you're starting from.  

If you _want_ multiple declensions in the daughters, my suggestion as to how to get them would be via the position of the stress!  In nouns with stress on the ending (the /-os/ in ergative singular, etc.), the stressed vowel and perhaps also its consonants would probably be well preserved, whereas in nouns with earlier stress, the ending vowels would be expected to reduce / collapse together / get deleted.  That would mean the root-stressed nouns would lose some distinctions.  You could bring them back with forms extracted by analogy from the end-stressed nouns, or alternatively you could collapse them in the end-stressed nouns as well (and remember collapses can be messy: if e.g. the dual and plural fall together, some cases, or some nouns, might retain dual forms while others retain plural forms).  Or if the root-stressed nouns lose their ending vowel, then the case consonants could interact with the newly adjacent root-final consonants, driving the forms further apart.  This kind of thing puts you well on the way to declensions.  

* Incidentally, I'd expect the nullar to be, if not replaced, then shored up by grammaticalising on another word, rather quickly (perhaps _b.u_ or something related).  Given that it's effectively a negation, it's too semantically important a distinction to be borne just by the quality of one, often unstressed, vowel.  

* In your Schleicher's fable, I see another verbosity: you use the dative plus a postposition "to" where the dative alone would suffice.

On the other hand, this kind of construction could be important in revitalising the case system in the daughters.  Both collapses due to sound change and simple loss will decrease the number of cases.  But this erosion could be countered and (more) cases (re)created by having postpositions get attached to the ends of the nouns they precede.  (Within IE, this is essentially what happened in Tocharian.)

* Most of the derivational morphology you have specified appears just to be compounding with certain noun stems (and most of it relevant just in place-naming).  Is compounding of this sort a general process, i.e. can you do it with other stems in second position too?  If so, that would be helpful in e.g. providing derivational morphology in the daughters.  

* In the verb there would surely be some losses of categories and syncreting and restructuring and so on.  But in case this is one of the things you're "trying to fix right now" I hesitate to say too much.

* What is _nyhos_, the second person pronoun?  Do you really mean /njhos/, or should it have been _nuhos_ or something?  

* In your lexicon 'and' is _=g.wet_, but in the Schleicher's fable it's just _=gwet_, unaspirated.

cheers,
Alex

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