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CONLANG  January 2014, Week 1

CONLANG January 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Iberian Gothic

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 5 Jan 2014 12:20:27 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (129 lines)

On 04/01/2014 20:49, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> On 4 January 2014 13:43, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> R A Brown  scripsit:
[snip]
>>> Also in the same email I wrote: "NOTE: I use the
>>> term 'bogolang' above, not because I like the term
>>> (I don't), but simply because no one has come up with
>>> a better alternative."
[snip]
>>
>> I call them "buffetlangs". Starting with the empty
>> plate of the newly inaugurated conlang project, you
>> just put a scoop from here and a heap from there until
>> done and pretty soon you have a right mess. Whether
>> it's a conlang or actual food in a cafeteria!
[snip]
>
> That seems to describe the wrong sort of thing to me- an
> art-pidgin or art-creole. Bogolangs are a very specific
> kind of mixture.

Yep - the "buffetlang" approach has certainly been adopted
(and why not?), but IMO it is not appropriate for _bogolang_
which, as Logan points out, is not picking a bit from here,
there and everywhere; it is specifically grafting one
phonological development onto the base of another.
=============================================================

On 04/01/2014 20:51, And Rosta wrote:
> Christian Thalmann, On 04/01/2014 11:39:
[snip]
>>
>> Are you referring to Jovian with that last statement?
>> If so, could you explain your definition of a
>> bozolang? It strikes me as a rather offensive term.
>
> _Bozolang_ would be offensive, but this is _bogolang_.
> See
>
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1302c&L=conlang&D=0&P=69816
>

Yes, I assumed _bozolang_ was a typo; it's not a term I've
come across before.

> I think _graftlang_ is the least infelicitous of the
> candidate names.

I think you are right.  All conlangs are "bogus" in that
they are not natlangs.  Calling these particular ones
"bogolangs" tells us nothing about them, whereas 'graftlang'
is more descriptive.

>> The fact that it is chiefly based on Classical Latin
>> is justified con-historically by a few generations of
>> nobility who declared the Vulgar Latin of the people
>> distasteful (lingua bovis) and strove to speak
>> Classical Latin at court instead (lingua Jovis).

For five or so centuries from the Classical period until the
break up of the western Empire?  It would be like having a
group who, in 2014, had preserved and were still speaking
as their everyday language the English of Shakespeare and
the King James Version.

[snip]

> The premise itself strikes me as implausible;

... I find it also implausible.  But IMO plausibility is not
an important criterion for all bogolangs. As I've written
before, I find no problem with such creations done for fun,
or for experiment.  It's when they get passed of as serious
reconstructions that I have a problem with.

> one would rather expect Classical Latin to be a
> superstrate on Vulgar,

_Written_ Latin certainly was.  But the written Latin of the
late Empire was not the Classical Latin Of Caesar. Cicero et
alii; it was what is usually called 'Christian Latin'
which evolved into Medieval Latin; the latter was always a
superstrate on the developing Romancelangs.

Classical Latin did not make a comeback until the
Renaissance; then it was certainly a superstrate, but only
on the romance languages - it had a profound effect on
English   ;)

> perhaps with some interesting hypercorrection effects
> (which is something I suspect is underexplored by
> conlangers).

I suspect so also - hypercorrection certainly took place, as
the Appendix Probi shows.
========================================================

On 04/01/2014 21:23, BPJ wrote:
[snip]
>
> As for 'bastardlang': by infelicitous attempt at getting
> a term implying a mixed language which could not arise in
> 'legitimate' = plausible language mixture contexts, and
> which begins in _b_.

Yes, but 'bastardlang' IMO implies a certain critical
judgment; indeed, as you may clear, it implies the language
is not 'legitimate.'   In what sense are any conlangs
'legitimate'?

I agree that (the majority of) graftlangs (a.k.a bogolangs)
are implausible; but I feel a generic names for them would
be better if it were neutral on that point.

I'll stick with graftlang.

There are other points i could have responded to, but I
think that's all i want to add to this thread (for the
moment)     :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
If /ni/ can change into /ɑ/, then practically
anything can change into anything.
[YUEN REN CHAO]

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