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CONLANG  January 2014, Week 2

CONLANG January 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Pakuni Decipherment Contribution

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 9 Jan 2014 18:24:39 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


>Unfortunately, just about everything I have is in manuscript form. I'd intended to put it into a web-friendly format, but have yet to get to it. I believe my work was mostly complete by the end of 2009, so the chance of me getting around to it any time soon is not that great, if I am honest with myself.


Well, if you ever get around to doing it, feel free to add to the Frath article, or make a website we can link to.


>There may be a few reasons for my lack of interest in putting my Comprehensive Illustrated Pakuni Dictionary on line. One is that my main motivation for putting it together was to resolve some of the shortcomings in the available material. At this point, my own questions have been answered and putting it on line wouldn't help with that. Another possible explanation is that I've never gotten the sense that there is a single person in the whole world who would appreciate my notes. Your request easily ranks in the top 2 inquiries. The folks on the conlang list don't seem overly interested in Land of The Lost or Pakuni, and the Land of The Lost folks aren't overly interested in the nitty gritty of language. Even Clayton, last I contacted him, was more interested in documenting every detail of the new and old "V" TV series than in correcting errors and omissions in his documentation of Pakuni.


Well, as I said, I am really not that interested in the language per se nor in the television series. My interest here is
more academic: it's a conlang; it's a conlang that was created for use on a television show; and it is relatively 

unknown. This in a community with many active conlangers (some of them 'professional' -- the maker of Dothraki
is among our number e.g.) and folks who are actually interested in the history of the art. We talk very frequently
of conlangs in the media -- from Tolkien to Burroughs to Okrand -- yet (at least for me) the name Fromkin has
never come up in any conversation.

I felt a duty to correct that wrong in some small way. At the very least to document the conlang and the conlanger 

at Frath and point out resources on it for anyone who might be interested.


>Of course, now that "George" is coming public with his work, maybe it is time for mine too.


Perhaps. Hopefully yours will come without the persecution angle and for preference without the "Pakuni is
the greatest thing since sliced alligator steaks" nonsense.


>I am not familiar with Frath Wiki, but I found the
article. It looks like it has been updated with info from "George". I found this comment especially
interesting:


Ah -- I see. Sigh. Well, at least he left out the anti-anti-Catholic and anti-ZBB diatribes!

The article, as it stands, is now in more need of a less than gentle editing than it ever was before.


>> Shadlag suspects that Olsen is a professionally-
>> trained Linguist, yet lacking in decipherment
>> experience and familiarity with Fromkin's conlangs,
>> both of which Shadlag claims in some measure.
>> Shadlag claims that Olsen's work lacks
>> methodological rigor, and yet is excellent
>> in its effort and even in its many fruits. 
> 
>At this point I consider Nels a personal friend to the point where I forget that he is the same "famous" Nels P Olsen who wrote the best-known Pakuni dictionary on the internet. Let's just say that "Shadlag" is wrong, and it's probably better not to give his speculations any more credit by quoting them. If it's important to know Nels's background, one could always contact him and ask. He's not hard to find.


Noted. Frath Wiki is definitely not the place for those sorts of speculations. Especially within an 

article about a (now deceased) third party's conlang!


>It is true, though, that Nels's dictionary does lack "methodological rigor", and I think Nels would agree with that. [Since writing this e-mail, I've read through "Greg Mann's" document and I regret that so many of his claims ended up in the Frath Wiki article, because so much of what is quoted is simply not true. It's especially poignant that where Greg openly disagrees with Nels, Nels is correct and Greg is in error.]


Would you mind pointing out such errors / difficulties to me via private email?

I feel that the article needs some paring down. I.e., to the language itself. Claims about lack of methodological rigor, etc. 

are rather out of place. Mind you, not many of the people writing at Frath (or here, for that matter) are professional
linguists. This doesn't stop us from writing grammars and dictionaries and trying to sort out other languages. It also
doesn't stop us from trying to do things in a reasonably scholarly fashion.


>> Me what I'd like to see is some sort of standard
>> type reference grammar. Whatever is directly
>> knowable about the grammar of the language
>> (and perhaps
what can be very reasonably inferred)
>> set out in some sort of logical format.
> 
>At this point, I would be confident in doing this without any speculation or guesswork. I had most of it figured out from watching the show. I am not a linguist, but it would be fair to say that I am an experienced language learner, and a lot of it fell into place from context. Then, I was given a document written by Fromkin, which spelled everything out. The trouble with this document is that it includes "corrections" to the language (by Fromkin) made after the show, and many details conflict with how the language was used in the show. It is unclear to me how to resolve some of these contradictions.


Well, as I said, most of us áren't linguists. Yet we manage to come up and describe all sorts of
interesting languages. No pressure or anything, but if ever you do decide to work on a reasonable
description of the grammar, I'd be happy to post it to Frath.

As for how to resolve those conflicts: clearly mistakes made by cast members are just that. It's
not our problem that no one coached them or anything. That's just lack of care on the producers'
part. Wherever Fromkin herself has changed something, that's worthy of note and ought at least
to be collated with the canonical material. The annotations can be made either within the text of
the grammar / lexicon itself or as a series of notes at the end. If the number of corrections is very
large, then probably a series of end notes would be better.


>> Then include any connected "texts" (probably
>> sentences or lines from the show) and then
>> an either-way lexicon of all the Pakuni roots.
> 
>There's plenty of that - but again, there are countless mistakes made by the actors. It's unfortunate that the best samples of this language were spoken by a child actor with false teeth. Ultimately, the person who "deciphers" Pakuni and documents it, must come up with some method to decide what "really" is and is not Pakuni.


In my opinion, the mistakes of actors have no bearing on the actual conlang itself. I don't know
if anyone has tried to separate wheat from chaff in all the various lexicons or not. Frankly, if
the conlanger creates a word 'langdom', and one actor says "laengdim" and another says
"laenggum" and a third says "longdome", that's not three words in the dictionary! That's one
word that has been mispronounced by the actors because no one bothered to coach them
properly. It does make harder work for the end documentor, of course. That person has to
sit down and make value judgements concerning various possible readings of a given word.


>Thomas


Padraic

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