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CONLANG  January 2014, Week 2

CONLANG January 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: SL orthography, was Re: Why it's important to plan ahead when designing orthographies

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:48:37 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (117 lines)

2014-01-14 09:12, R A Brown skrev:
> On 14/01/2014 00:53, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
>> What do people think of umlauts? Using an umlauted i and
>> an umlauted e to represent ɨ and ɛ ?
>
> To which
> on 14/01/2014 01:30, David Peterson replied:
>> Please no.

In this case I agree!  I would use circumflex for /ɨ ɛ ɔ/
since using _ö_ for /ɔ/ would confuse the hell out of everyone!

     i     î     u
       e       o
         ê   ô
           a

_î_ is /ɨ/ in Romanian and _ê ô_ are /ɛ ɔ/ in French.

If I were to use all ASCII I might in this case, where
the lang has no diphthongs, use

/ɨ/     _ui_ or _ie_
/ɛ/     _ae_ or _ea_
/ɔ/     _eo_ or _oa_

since they won't jump out of the page for an English speaker.

But actually I'd use

/ɨ/     _î_ or _ia_
/ɛ/     _ê_ or _ea_
/ɔ/     _ô_ or _oa_

in parallel, with both an ASCII and diacritic alternative
and a uniform and reasonable symbolization in both cases.
To be überpedagogic one might even point out that ^ looks
a little like the upper part of A!

NB I'm not opposed to umlaut/diaeresis if used properly.
For the 'unified' transcription of the Sohlob languages I use

     i   ü   î   ï   u
     e   ö   ê   ë   o
     ä       â   a   å

and for my native dialect I have since the nineties used[^1]

     i   y       u       (ů)
     [ï] [ÿ] [î] (ŷ)     o
     e   ö   ê   û
                         å
     ë   [õ]     ô
     ä
     (ǎ) (ǒ) â       [ã] a

[^1]:   The bracketed items are of course allophonic,
     and the parenthesized items are both allophonic and
     could originally only be done in LaTeX, and besides
     the phonemic status of _ä_ is also doubtful but it is
     the result of neutralization of _ë/â_ in some contexts,
     so it makes sense to have a grapheme for it.

This was was the best I could do with Latin-1 which made sense
from the POV of the values of _u y å ä ö_ in Swedish orthography
and the traditional use of _ô â û_ in dialect literature.

>
> Which prompted the reply -
>
> On 14/01/2014 02:04, Nathan Klassen wrote:
> [snip]
>> Why ever not? Seems like a not unreasonable use of a
>> diaresis.
>
> It is not a reasonable use of _diaeresis_ which is when two
> vowels in adjacent syllables are pronounced separately as in
> _coöperate_ or the Welsh _copïau_ (copies).
>
> This was the original use of two dots or 'trema.'  But they
> also came to be used, instead of a small superimposed _e_,
> in German to denote vowels modified by i-umlaut, i.e.
> fronted, e.g. Vater (father) ~ Väter (fathers).
>
> I guess purists would object to those two little dots being
> used in any other way, except for diaeresis or i-umlaut.
> But that doesn't put of natlangs! The Albanians happily
> write [ə] as ë   ;)
>
> If Esperanto can take a diacritic whose original use was
> solely on long vowels or diphthongs (and, indeed, often
> marked a contraction of vowels into a single sound) and
> stick the thing on the top of _consonants_, then just about
> anything goes in a conlang     :)
>
> So, Sylvia, cheer up.
>
> On 14/01/2014 01:52, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
>> Oh, very well. At this rate I will just have to stick
>> with the current IPA-based romanization. :-( -S
>
> If in _your_ conlang you are happy with ï for [ɨ] and ë for
> [ɛ], then stick with it     :)
>
> ========================================================
>
> On 14/01/2014 04:31, Roger Mills wrote:
> [snip]
>> If you use a Windows machine, you can set you keyboard to
>> US International which enables you to type unlauts and
>> grave/acute accents quite easily. As for Macs, I don't
>> know, but I'm sure it's possible.
>
> Not only possible, but dead simple - as it has been on all
> the Macs I've used over many years      ;)
>

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