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CONLANG  February 2014, Week 1

CONLANG February 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Agreement in Adverbs

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:32:16 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


> On 06/02/2014 13:46, Guilherme Santos wrote:
>>  Yes, i cannot make every adverb agree, specially those
>>  who are only considered adverbs because they don't fit
>>  anywhere else. I would like examples of "sentence
>>  adverbs", what kind of words fit in this category, and
>>  exactly how do they modify the entire proposition?
> 
> According to Larry Trask, they express "distinctions of
> modality, evaluation, illocutionary force and perhaps other
> notions.'  He gives as examples in English: _possibly,
> certainly, undoubtedly, hopefully, fortunately, frankly,
> confidentially, briefly_.
> 
> They seem a bit like evidentials, maybe.

Agreed. Mind you, there's no reason one can't have evidentials that are also
adverbs. And I would also say that, evidentials or not, they do cast a shadow
of sorts over the whole sentence and perhaps even further. This might be
a metagramatical modification of sorts, but I think it fits the bill.

It strikes me that many of those old Latin ablative absolutes sort of
work as adverbs modifying the whole sentence or thought. The "The
Ides having been passed by, the armies made for the pass..." sort of thing. 
It doesn't modify "make for" so much as it gives shape and framework to 
everything that follows in the narrative because we're now putting everything
into the context of a particular timeframe. Of course, English can do that as 
well. It's just a matter of how broadly or how narrowly one defines "adverb"
and whether one calls these sorts of things "adverbs" or some other name.
And it's not my intention to declare one or the other or argue the point here.
Just offering what I see as an example.

Conlinguistically, these sorts of 'pre-sentence adverbial phrases' are
how many Daine languages handle verbal morphology (tense, aspect, etc).
Not so much that they agree with nouns or verbs or anything like that,
but I would say they are sentence adverbs and modify the whole thought
or sentence or even paragraph that follows.

>>  Apparently adverbs are divided into categories:
> 
> On 06/02/2014 13:59, Guilherme Santos wrote:
>>  I certainly have to stop sending incomplete messages by
>>  mistake
> 
> Especially as have a limit of five poss per day   ;)
> 
>>  continuing
>> 
>>  Adverbs of Mode: things like well, badly, and most other
>>   adverbs ending in -ly
> 
> The traditional English term is: "adverbs of manner."
> 
>>  Adverbs of Time: like yesterday, tomorrow, today,
>>  tonight, always, never, etc.
>> 
>>  Adverbs of Place: here, there, and such
> 
> Yep - that's what we were taught in school.
> 
>>  Adverbs of Negation: no, not, never
>> 
>>  Adverbs of Affirmation: yes, certainly
> 
> At school, _never_ was classed as an "adverb of time." But
> should the others be classified as adverbs or should they
> have some other categorization?
> 
>>  Adverbs of Intensity: very, quite, I think as ___ as also
>>  is in this category and there are some other lost stuff
>>  here
> 
> We were taught them as "adverbs of degree."  But as they
> don't modify verbs, should we really class them as adverbs?

I've often heard "quite" as a modifier of verbs: "I quite disagree
with what you said..." sort of thing. I think you could argue either
way that "very" modifies passive verbs: "he is very missed", etc.

>>  I am not sure if this is the exact terminology used for
>>  English, but it seems like the Adverbs of Mode are the
>>  highest candidates to agreement, and maybe the negation
>>  ones too, since Finnish, i think, correct me otherwise,
>>  has "no/not" as an auxiliary verb or something alike.
> 
> It is verbal in Finnish.
> 
>>  The affirmation adverbs are weird,
> 
> Precisely, which is why I question whether they should be
> considered as adverbs, or whether they have just been dumped
> there because it's too troublesome to categorize them.

What else might they be categorised as? We tend to cling to the
traditional Latin POS categories -- that pretty much leaves us
with only "adverb" to stick all these otherwise unplaceable things!

>>  so they may not be that necessary. It certainly makes no
>>  sense having tense agreement in the Adverbs of Time
>>  (maybe aspect agreement), And i have no idea what is
>>  supposed to happen with place adverbs as for agreement.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> I'd guess that if you want to experiment with adverbial
> agreement with verbs, the best idea would be to start with
> "adverbs of manner" as these are more clearly the analog of
> adjectives agreeing with nouns.

"Agreement" can be for any number of things, not just the obvious.
I gave an example of adverbs that modify verbs, yet agree with the
associated noun by gender. One could probably devise a scheme
whereby different adverbs agree with different classes of verbs or
perhaps the verbal person. Or perhaps the adverb has to agree with
the person actually speaking the words!, such that an elder relating
a story would use certain adverbs, while a youngster would use a
different set.

> Adjectives traditionally agree with their nouns in number,
> gender and case (if there is case distinction).  Verbs can
> be marked for tense, aspect and mood (TAM), so maybe adverbs
> would have TAM agreement?

Why not? We already have adverbials that are marked for person
(the conjugated preverbs of Old Irish). Why not extend the system?

Padraic

> Ray

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