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CONLANG  February 2014, Week 2

CONLANG February 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Pakuni Decipherment Contribution

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 8 Feb 2014 16:14:45 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (148 lines)

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


>I saw your reply to "George Mann's" earlier e-mail, and since you appear to be taking at least some of his claims at face value, once again I feel compelled to offer some clarifying details.


I'm not exactly sure in what way I'm taking his claims at face value. In rereading my answer,
it seems I've disagreed, to some extent, with just about every point he made. Disagreement
(nor even the occasional agreement!) on points of discussion doesn't necessarily constitute†
taking those points at face value! I might say that such consistent disagreement more likely
indicates that I don't take his claims at face value very often.


>>†> (The corpus is mostly "Oganza bisasa !"†
>> > repeated over and over and over.† It's very telegraphic. ) 
>>
>> That's not really enough of a corpus to count as "largest"
>> by really almost anyone's†definition. Most conlangers on
>> this list have languages with more texts or more
>> detailed grammars or larger lexicons. 
>
>
>While I might agree with Padraic's analysis of "largest" here, I would disagree with the suggestion that the corpus is "mostly" two words repeated over and over. I suppose one could quibble over the definition of "mostly."


That of course was "George"'s characterisation, not mine. Whatever size the language's
actual corpus may or may not be aside, it is quite ridiculous to claim that a language
with such a small corpus actually has the largest of any conlang!


>>†I am curious: how large is Pakuni's corpus?
>> How many words int he lexicon? How
>> large are the texts in the language?
>
>As a first order of magnitude answer, there are "a few hundred" Pakuni words.
>My transcription of the Pakuni dialog from the show fits on 14 handwritten pages. There are also examples of Pakuni in some comic books, but these are just repetition of common phrases from the show.

Exactly. In other words, his claim about Pakuni having the largest corpus is bunkum.
I hardly took that one at face value!

As a matter of contrast, one conlang I've been working on of late has (at present)
upwards of 1200 recorded words in the lexicon (I have another with nearly or
perhaps more than 3000 -- and this number pales in comparison to some other
conlexicographers' labours!); about 20 pages of grammatical material and a body
of texts that runs some 10 to 15 pages, all of ten point text.

I'm certainly not boasting or anything -- there are many others here whose languages
can double or treble those numbers. In comparison, two to three hundred words in
a lexicon is something some folks here do on a rainy boring weekend!


>>†What would really be nice to see is a collaborative
>> and reasonably authoritative grammar†and lexicon
>> for this conlang.
>
>Does this count?
>
>http://www.dementedstuff.com/lotl/pakuni2.html

Getting there -- there's no grammar to speak of. That TV Guide article goes into more
detail. I was wondering if this grammar of Fromkin's I keep hearing about is more
detailed? By "grammar" we generally mean some kind of description of how the language
works. How words sound, how they relate together and so forth. Like this: 

http://www.frathwiki.com/Lucarian


>>†> None of the people who made or developed
>> > Pakuni were conlangers as I know the†
>> > type from Conlang List and Zompist Bboard. 
>>
>>†Once you make a language, you become a conlanger!
>> By definition.
>
>I think what "Mann" was getting at is that Fromkin wasn't overly interested in putting Pakuni in the context of the fictional world, and that people like Olsen, Barr, and Laurel are not overly interested in linguistic details, or in languages at all outside of Pakuni. If it is, then I think he's got a legitimate point. It's the sort of thing that you (Padraic) said above when you said you wanted a "reasonably authoritative" grammar. It's hard to be authoritative if one doesn't use a consistent orthography. or fails to make distinctions between nouns and verbs.

That's okay -- she was paid to do a job, after all! My point was that he is
incorrect. In so doing, by definition, she becomes what he says she is not, 

namely a conlanger. That word, of course, did not exist in those days; but that 

doesn't mean we can't apply our present vocabulary to her activities back in those 

days.


The others are fans of the show. One is an RPG player, and RPG players are 

notorious for dabbling in the art. What Laurel did is little different from what a
number of us here have done, namely, to take an already existing language (be
it constructed or natural) and mess about with it! There is no sin in both wanting†
to make a language (i.e., for a game) and then go about it while being generally
ignorant of linguistics. There is also no sin in being a "monogamous conlanger".

What I mean by "reasonably authoritative" is this: Fromkin's actual handwritten 

notes regarding how her language works and what her words mean is Class A
on the authoritative scale. That is the most authoritative, because it is the conlanger's
actual notes and works. Next step down is someone (like you) collecting together
such notes as you have from the author and collating and publishing that material
in a way the rest of us can see. Like this: http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_grammar.htm
Tolkien did not write that web page, but it contains matter extracted from his work.
This is very reliable. Far less authoritative is (all) your efforts at deciphering
otherwise unknown words from the show. Those are your conjectures based on
context. Some guesses may be right while others may be wrong -- we won't know
until those words are found (and defined!) in a source of higher authority.


So what I mean by "reasonably authoritative" grammar is not necessarily a
scan of Fromkin's notebooks; but certainly some article where that information
is presented and is combined with strong information from other sources (the
TV Guide articles, etc, etc). I.e., what you seem to be working on!


>Of course, saying so this openly might also be seen as bad manners.


I really don't think so!


>>†It would be very nice if the information in that
>> reference grammar could itself be put on†line.
>>†I know you guys have been working hard at
>> deciphering words and so forth, but surely
>> there's a lot of authoritatively known data in
>> that grammar of Fromkin's??
>
>
>Funny you should mention this. :-)
>
>As I've mentioned here, I'm planning on putting together an article discussing how "authoritative" the data in Fromkin's grammar is (or isn't), at which point, I could easily pass along the grammar itself. I'll leave it up to the Fiat Lingua folks whether they feel comfortable including the document on their page, because it's copyrighted material.

Well, if what you're doing is arranging and presenting the data, then I don't think you will be in
violation of copyright. For example, if I tell you Latin has four conjugations of verbs, one in
-are, one in -Íre, one in -ere and one in -ire, and examples are amare, monÍre, tegere and audire,
that's not violation of copyright, even though you can find the information in any copyrighted Latin 

grammar book! (And you might even be able to pick which particular, based on the paradigm
words chosen.) Point being, this is now your own work, even though you use information from
someone else (and I'm sure you'll give proper credit to your sources!).


>Thomas


Padraic

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