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CONLANG  February 2014, Week 2

CONLANG February 2014, Week 2

Subject:

What is telicity? (was:: Split subject by telicity)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:58:40 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (203 lines)

On 13/02/2014 12:08, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 13 February 2014 12:01, R A Brown
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> On re=reading Comrie on "telic and atelic" (op.cit.
>> pages 44 to 48), it seems that this notion requires
>> real world knowledge and is not a purely grammatical
>> concept.
>
>
> Actually, the Wikipedia article about telicity (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telicity) criticises this
> point of view, ending with the words: "This type of
> exercise can serve as a reminder of the futility of
> trying to link linguistic semantics to the real world
> without considering the intermediary agent of human
> cognition."

Yes, but that merely questions whether telicity is actually
a useful or notion or not.    ;)

It also depends who wrote the Wikipedia article;  I have
found some dreadful stuff on Wikipedia (and tried to correct
some).

Having said that, I've never been satisfied with Comrie's
treatment of telicity.  While he may be (fairly) sound on
aspect, I got the felling he included the bit on telicity
because he felt he should without really getting to grips
with it.

I did consult Trask (A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms), but
he says little and basically refers to Comrie.  I've also
checked Crystal (A Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics)
and find:
{quote}
*telic(ity)* A term used in the GRAMMATICAL analysis of
ASPECT, to refer to an event where the activity has a clear
terminal point.  Telic verbs include _fall, kick_, and
_make_ (something).  These verbs contrast with ATELIC verbs,
where the event has no such natural end-point, as with
_play_ (in such a context as _the children are playing_).
(unquote}

He seems to imply that the telicity of some verbs, e.g.
_play_ is context dependent, while that of other, e.g.
_fall_, kick_ is not.  I find this unsatisfactory and, I'm
sure, so do you.

[snip]
>>
> The problem is that Comrie is trying to refer to real
> world events *on their own*, while we should be looking
> at real world events *as they are conceptualised by the
> speaker*. The distinction is not trivial.

Indeed not - you make a very valid point IMO.  Language
developed aeons ago as individuals vocalized their thoughts
in order to communicate with their fellows.   Language
reflected the conceptualized world-view of the speaker as it
still does.  We just hope our listeners'/ readers'
conceptual world-view is not significantly different as to
hinder comprehension.

Also it is arguable whether any of us can, in fact, ever
refer to 'real' world events *on their own*.  Surely each of
us must perforce refer to things through our own
conceptualization?  It does not seem to me to make Comrie
point about _John is singing a song_ any less valid.  Surely
the point is whether the speaker conceptualizes _John is
singing a song_ as a telic or atelic situation.

[snip]
>
> Once you have that in mind, it's not an issue to describe
> telicity as a purely linguistic concept, because that's
> what it is.

So how is it defined linguistically?  (That's a genuine
question)

If one takes the first sentence of the Wikipedia article as
the definition, then what is seems to say is that verbs
which are past perfective and verbs which are present
perfect are telic.   This may well be useful in explaining
why verbs in many languages, e.g. Classical Latin and modern
French, do not formally distinguish the two tense-aspect combos.

> Once again, I think the "quantisation and cumulative
> reference" definition hits the mark pretty well when it
> comes to telicity.

Interesting - I've downloaded a copy of Manfred Krifka's
"The Origins of Telicity", and shall read it carefully and
with interest.

> Look at your example: "John is singing a song". Imagine
> he does so for 4 minutes. So we can cut this 4-minute
> event into 2 2-minute subevents. Can those two events be
> accurately described as "John is singing a song"? Yes of
> course! In that case, the expression "John is singing a
> song" has cumulative reference, i.e. it is atelic.

Two small points:
(a) It is not _my_ example - it's Comrie's.
(b) By Comrie's definition a situation is telic if it has
only one definite end point at which we can say "X had done.
/X has done ... / X will have done ...", then the situation is
telic.

His example is _John is singing_.  There is no definite end
point.  If John gets interrupted and has to stop (or chooses
to stop) we can say "John has sung."   But with "John is
making a chair", we cannot say "john has made a chair" if he
was interrupted work and to leave of his making; we can say
"John has made a chair" only when the chair is made.

How that relates, if at all, to quantization and cumulative
reference I will nor speculate at the moment.  I will read
Krifka first.

> On the other hand, "John sang a song" is telic, even if
> it refers to exactly the same event.

It's certainly part perfective   ;)

[snip]
>
> As you can see, the same event can be described using an
>  atelic or a telic expression.

Comrie seems to say that as well.
[snip]

> Telicity is often confused with perfectness, and indeed
> those two have a lot in common.

Yep.

> But they are different enough that they can be combined
> (indeed, in English "I have written a book" is perfect
> and telic, while "I have been writing a book" is perfect
> but usually atelic).

Ah, the English "perfect progressive" forms - Welsh has
corresponding forms.  How common is this combination of
aspects in other languages?

>> As one of the objects of conlanging, at least for some
>>  of us, is to experiment with ideas, why not just
>> tryout Scenario A and Scenario B and see what happens.
>> Even if, in the end, an experiment proves unsuccessful,
>> it does IMO give some insight into the way language
>> works.
>>
>>
> True, but only if one is using a useful definition of
> telicity. If the definition is unclear or incorrect,
> whatever happens will not give us much insight.

It might send someone looking for a more correct definition.
  I won't bother to experiment; your email has already sent
me looking for a more correct definition   :)

As for the Wikipedia article, I notice on the 'Talk' page:
"Telicity is *not* a verb aspect. The reading of the notion
of telicity, as described in the article, is somewhat
strange for me ...."

Another person writes: "I have just noticed that telicity is
defined incorrectly in the article."

Also, interestingly: "...telicity is not a morphological
category at all, but a semantic feature (verbs that somehow
express or do not express an inherent goal of the action)
that can have very different morphological realizations in
different languages .... The Navaho situation provides
particularly good evidence that telicity and aspect have
nothing to do with each other: Navaho distinguishes aspect
by means of phonological changes of the verb root, and
telicity by means of prefixes."

That last bit is interesting.  I think there are people on
the list who know (some/ something about) Navaho.  Is that
last sentences quoted correct?

I see 'SIL Glossary of linguistic terms' doesn't list
_telic(ity)_     ;)

Ah, well, I'd better pour myself a strong coffee and get
reading Krifka's article    ;)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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