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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  February 2014, Week 2

CONLANG February 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Pakuni Decipherment Contribution

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 9 Feb 2014 05:13:40 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (81 lines)

Hi Padraic, Thanks for the reply.

>†I'm not exactly sure in what way I'm
> taking his claims at face value.

Well, as I continued my reply, I saw that in at least one point I had initially misread your comment. It looks to me that in your most recent reply to me there is one point where you have misread mine. It doesn't look like a big deal and I'm cool with it if you are. Sorry for the confusion.

>†Exactly. In other words, his claim about Pakuni
> having the largest corpus is bunkum.
> I hardly took that one at face value!

I was thinking more about the assertion that the non-large corpus is mostly two words (as George claims). That's bunkum too, and I wanted to say so. :-)

Saying that two words constitutes the largest corpus seems to me more of a "conclusion" than a "claim", but I don't suppose there's a reason to get hung up on terms. Again, sorry for the confusion.

> >>†What would really be nice to see is a collaborative
> >> and reasonably authoritative grammar†and lexicon
> >> for this conlang.
> >
> >Does this count?
> >
> >http://www.dementedstuff.com/lotl/pakuni2.html
>
>†Getting there -- there's no grammar to speak of.

I would have said that there's plenty of grammar there, only it's not presented in the kind of way that a "language person" (or "conlanger", whatever) would expect. This is what I was getting at when I said that I actually agree with "George" with regards to the people who "developed" Pakuni -- at least as far as I believe I understand what George means by "developed" here, and that he really means "wrote about it publicly", and not "developed" per se.

>†That's okay -- she was paid to do a job, after all!
> My point was that he is†incorrect.

And my point is that in this one case, George wasn't so much incorrect but rather unclear and you have missed what he's getting at. I agree with you that what George *actually said* in this case is incorrect, and I could easily be mistaken about what he was trying to say, but the point remains (and you made it yourself) that even though there are descriptions of the language that are useful to fans, these descriptions contain "no grammar to speak of." I think that's what George meant when he said that Laurel (et al) are not conlangers.

> What Laurel did is little different from what a

> number of us here have done, namely, to take
> an already existing language (be†it constructed
> or natural) and mess about with it!

Well, messing around is as messing around does. Some might quibble whether the term "little different" can be applied to two cases where in the one the person generally understood the language they were messing around with and in the other she did not.

>††There is no sin in both wanting to make a language
> (i.e., for a game) and then go about it while being
> generally†ignorant of linguistics. There is also no sin
> in being a "monogamous conlanger".

The sin in this case is that the first version of her page stood for years with the original and "made up" words mixed together, and the explanation of this was buried in a long introduction and clearly missed by many people who read it. There are descriptions of Pakuni which include detailed analyses of Laurel's words as if they are from the show.

I think this link will work:

http://books.google.com/books?id=cQhke8K9G60C&pg=PA107


Just about every (Pakuni) word in that article is wrong. The only real Pakuni words in the article are YO, ONAM, and †ABU. The one phrase ("oje rokasa") is spelled wrong.

I am glad that Laurel has made the effort to make the distinction between her project and "real" Pakuni more clear, and as a result her page now serves as a pretty good introduction.

>†Well, if what you're doing is arranging and presenting
> the data, then I don't think you will be in†violation of
> copyright.

On the contrary, I'm nearly certain I would be. The question is whether it's a big deal and whether anybody would come after someone who did such a thing. Copyright law includes protection against derivative works. I understand that it's at least somewhat subjective what is meant by "derivative." I could probably totally crib one of your encyclopedia articles (hypothetically) and get away with it because there would be no way to show that I didn't do the same original research that you did, since we're both writing about facts in the real world.

This is the same as your Latin example:

>†For example, if I tell you Latin has four conjugations of
> verbs, one in†-are, one in -Íre, one in -ere and one in -ire,
> and examples are amare, monÍre, tegere and audire,
> that's not violation of copyright, even though you can
> find the information in any copyrighted Latin 


There was a case where someone had compiled an encyclopedia of the Harry Potter universe and at least the time at which I became aware of this story, J.K.Rowling had managed to halt publication of this work, claiming it was derivative of hers.

Checking some of the details now, I think this probably was the "Harry Potter Lexicon". It seems a few more details have played out since I was paying attention to this, but either way it seems like the lesson is that if you tick off the wrong copyright holder, they can make trouble for you if you're writing about their fiction.

I've made an inversion of Fromkin's 1995 lexicon, and I'm pretty sure that would be considered derivative if it came down to it. I'm also pretty sure nobody is going to fuss about it. If someone wants to put Fromkin's actual lexicon online (including the explicit "copywrite" [sic] notice, that's their business.

The "Comprehensive Illustrated Pakuni Dictionary", the draft of which was just published on Fiat Lingua, is a different case covered under fair use.

Thomas

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