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CONLANG  February 2014, Week 2

CONLANG February 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Pakuni Decipherment Contribution

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 9 Feb 2014 15:56:13 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (167 lines)

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


>>  Exactly. In other words, his claim about Pakuni  having the largest corpus is bunkum.
>>  I hardly took that one at face value!
> 
> I was thinking more about the assertion that the non-large corpus is mostly two 
> words (as George claims). That's bunkum too, and I wanted to say so. :-)
> 
> Saying that two words constitutes the largest corpus seems to me more of a 
> "conclusion" than a "claim", but I don't suppose 
> there's a reason to get hung up on terms. Again, sorry for the confusion.

Suffice to say that a number of his claims / conclusions / opinions / whatever are
coming so far from left field, they're almost around to right field again!

>>  >> What would really be nice to see is a collaborative
>>  >> and reasonably authoritative grammar and lexicon
>>  >> for this conlang.
>>  >
>>  >Does this count?
>>  >
>>  >http://www.dementedstuff.com/lotl/pakuni2.html
>> 
>>  Getting there -- there's no grammar to speak of.
> 
> I would have said that there's plenty of grammar there, only it's not 
> presented in the kind of way that a "language person" (or 
> "conlanger", whatever) would expect. 

Well, again, I suppose for a very peculiar definition of "plenty"! . . .

> This is what I was getting at 
> when I said that I actually agree with "George" with regards to the 
> people who "developed" Pakuni -- at least as far as I believe I 
> understand what George means by "developed" here, and that he really 
> means "wrote about it publicly", and not "developed" per se.

Obviously, I don't really know what "George" is thinking in that regard,
but we dó know that the one person who actually "developed" (i.e.,
constructed) Pakuni was an actual linguist. She knew what reference
grammars look like; she knew how languages are described (via field
work, etc); she knew very well how this constructed language ought best
be laid out on paper.

Now, the TV guide article is a different matter -- that is a reporter's condensation 
of an interview with Fromkin. I don't consider that as being a particularly good
description of the language. And it's not supposed to be!

The page you link to has some grammatical information, but really not very much.
Again, I'm sure this grammar of Fromkin's must have more information than
is given in the TV Guide article!

Certainly, from a conlanger's perspective, the above is a good start, but really
nowhere near enough to satisfy curiosity. Unless there really just ėsn't any more
to be presented! Then, we must rest satisfied that nothing more will be forthcoming.

>>>> > None of the people who made or developed Pakuni were conlangers as I know the 
>>>> > type from Conlang List and Zompist Bboard.
>
>>>> Once you make a language, you become a conlanger! By definition.
>
>>>I think what "Mann" was getting at is that Fromkin wasn't overly interested in putting Pakuni 
>>>in the context of the fictional world, and that people like Olsen, Barr, and Laurel are not overly 
>>>interested in linguistic details, or in languages at all outside of Pakuni. If it is, then I think he's got 
>>>a legitimate point. It's the sort of thing that you (Padraic) said above when you said you wanted 
>>>a "reasonably authoritative" grammar. It's hard to be authoritative if one doesn't use a consistent 
>>>orthography. or fails to make distinctions between nouns and verbs.

>>  That's okay -- she was paid to do a job, after all!
>>  My point was that he is incorrect.
> 
> And my point is that in this one case, George wasn't so much incorrect but 
> rather unclear and you have missed what he's getting at. 

Quite possible. I can only take at face value what he says. By definition, when you create a language,
you become a conlanger! Whether you intend to or not. Whether you are even aware of it or not.
Whether she came to it by paid position or by love of the art is of arguable merit. Me I don't really 
care one way or the other, but to say that she is not therefore a conlanger is, I would argue "incorrect".

That said, I agree with you in that Fromkin probably had zero interest in putting Pakuni in the context
of a fictional world -- after all, she was contracted to make the language, not the whole world! She
probably also had no idea that conlanging was a thing people did (with the possible exception of
Tolkien) and if aware, may not have known the depths people have delved into the art.

> I agree with you 
> that what George *actually said* in this case is incorrect, and I could easily 
> be mistaken about what he was trying to say, but the point remains (and you made 
> it yourself) that even though there are descriptions of the language that are 
> useful to fans, these descriptions contain "no grammar to speak of." I 
> think that's what George meant when he said that Laurel (et al) are not 
> conlangers.

Sure. Of course, what is "useful to fans" may or may not be particularly satisfying to
conlangers. In looking at the linked site, my first instinct is to say "that's it? There has
to be more to the story than just that! (After all, a linguist made the language up...)"

That said, I have zero interest in what is "useful to fans"! I'm not a fan of the show
and have never claimed to be. My interest is in the language itself, and therefore what
can be said to be of interest to conlangers!

>>  What Laurel did is little different from what a 
>>  number of us here have done, namely, to take
>>  an already existing language (be it constructed
>>  or natural) and mess about with it!
> 
> Well, messing around is as messing around does. Some might quibble whether the 
> term "little different" can be applied to two cases where in the one 
> the person generally understood the language they were messing around with and 
> in the other she did not.

Who said we always understand the languages we mess around with!?

Being a conlanger doesn't confer on one some kind of linguistic omniscience.  Sure,
some of us are (real, degreed, well read) linguists in fact and often times know more
about various languages than some of the rest of us. This is kind of a red herring,
really. We mess around with languages whether or not we fully understand what we're
doing!

If you really want to argue that some folks know of what they mess while others
don't -- fine! If you want to argue that it matters -- fine! Doesn't much matter, really.

>>   There is no sin in both wanting to make a language
>>  (i.e., for a game) and then go about it while being
>>  generally ignorant of linguistics. There is also no sin
>>  in being a "monogamous conlanger".
> 
> The sin in this case is that the first version of her page stood for years with 
> the original and "made up" words mixed together, and the explanation 
> of this was buried in a long introduction and clearly missed by many people who 
> read it. There are descriptions of Pakuni which include detailed analyses of 
> Laurel's words as if they are from the show.
>
> [...]
>
> I am glad that Laurel has made the effort to make the distinction between her 
> project and "real" Pakuni more clear, and as a result her page now 
> serves as a pretty good introduction.

Agreed on this point. It is a problem -- and in this case, possibly of an actionable
nature -- to apparently plagarise the work of one person, mix it in with your work and then
present that whole as your own work (leaving a prospective reader to find the
proverbial needle in a haystack in order to find that golden disclaimer!)

From what you've said, the sin has been expiated by remorseful repentance! I
consider that a done deal.

>>  Well, if what you're doing is arranging and presenting
>>  the data, then I don't think you will be in violation of
>>  copyright.
> 
> On the contrary, I'm nearly certain I would be. The question is whether 
> it's a big deal and whether anybody would come after someone who did such a 
> thing. Copyright law includes protection against derivative works. I understand 
> that it's at least somewhat subjective what is meant by 
> "derivative." I could probably totally crib one of your encyclopedia 
> articles (hypothetically) and get away with it because there would be no way to 
> show that I didn't do the same original research that you did, since 
> we're both writing about facts in the real world.

Suit yourself! The choice is yours then: put it online and hope for the best, or
keep a secret!

> Thomas

Padraic

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March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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November 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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